Bakewell

[aslan]

my above post took me a long time to write and therefore I did not know all of the above was going on. I have been enjoying my back and forth with Terry and see no need to turn this into a slanging match.

There is a great divide between showies and racers in England - as becomes painfully obvious on here at times. We don't suffer that here in Australia, because we don't have a long established racing fraternity (with a national organisation that offers titles as well). But this should not be a reason that we can't have a spirited discussion about our beloved breed. Who knows we might even learn something from each other.

For those of you who don't know - Terry and Sheila were the people who put me up while I was in England - and they didn't really know me at all before they consented to do this. They took me to a show and entered a dog for me to handle. They are good people. I can accept that Terry has different views from mine - but I still like to discuss them with him.

And if I say I am slightly offended by something that he's said (as I have above) - it doesn't mean that I hate his guts or call him names!

Cartman is a good bloke too - but I don't agree with everything he has said either - but I haven't got nasty with him over it either.

Beejay - I wasn't trying to be smart in my question to you - it was a genuine question as I didn't quite understand the post.

Please ... as I asked before ... can we just calm down and discuss things logically and sedately.

 

[LEA]

Mr Smith keep talking about Yankees....

To me he sounds like a "HILLBILLY"!!!! :teehee:

 

[Cartman]

Lana. Well said. :teehee:

 

[Judy]

Blimey! - where's my tin hat

Just a couple of observations.

Just because I don't race my dogs doesn't mean that I am not trying to breed dogs that can

How can you be trying to breed dogs that can race if you don't test them by racing them ? Thats like saying "I bet my dog would be really good if I raced him" - A lot of us have said that before we started racing No offence Lana but it's true.

The extended and "exaggerated" trot that Jax mentions of today's "trotters" is actually a PACE.

Jax was actually quoting from a book that really did mean trot not pace. Two different things as you pointed out. An extended trot is not a pace - its a trot with longer periods of free flight ie. periods where there are no feet on the ground and is a quicker gait than the normal trot.

I do agree that to show a dog at it's best means trotting it at the speed that best suits that particular dog. However I have to agree with Terry (if not the way he says it ) that how a dog that can trot well does not neccessarily gallop which is the important gait for a running breed. You can't very well gallop a dog round the show ring though. At least a trot can be used to evaluate a dogs balance and may show up any obvious faults. Its probably the best you can do within the confines of the show ring. It does not prove however, that they can perform their original function - and yes I know there are disagreements as to what that was but they did all involve galloping.

As for the angulation thing - all the biomechanics books say straight = speed and angulation= stamina. To the proper degree of course.

Whippets that are breed to race are on a whole, smaller lumps of an animal that has not yet evolved. Breeding them for the purpose of that they were ment for. From the shallow end of the gene pool. A 14" muntant that fits under the coal miners coat. Big deal.

Gee - thanks Cartman. I hope that was a joke :lol:

 

[dessie]

Mr Smith keep talking about Yankees.... To me he sounds like a "HILLBILLY"!!!! :teehee:

Looks like you wasted your breath Lana!

I agree that there is nothing wrong with having a debate about various topics but why do we have to get the personal jibes going especially if you have a different view from what others are saying?? We are all allowed our own opinion, it's a free country!!! Well, it used to be under the Tory Government, not so sure now!

 

[dessie]

As for the angulation thing - all the biomechanics books say straight = speed and angulation= stamina. To the proper degree of course.

And I think racehorses prove that theory, the sprinters are far more 'dumpy' and straight in angulation than the middle distance/jumping horses and often move abominably at the walk/trot

 

[whipowill]

As for the angulation thing - all the biomechanics books say straight = speed and angulation= stamina. To the proper degree of course.

And I think racehorses prove that theory, the sprinters are far more 'dumpy' and straight in angulation than the middle distance/jumping horses and often move abominably at the walk/trot

Just to add another thought to this bit of the discussion.

Is it possible that with straighter angles the animal can move faster because it doesn't take as long for the angle to do the work it is required to do because it doesn't have to travel as far?

 

[Cartman]

I'm not sure but I do believe that the 14" lump comment was thrown out there to  cause a reaction.  And it did. (Feel free to correct me here if you must Cartman)

That remark will came back to bite me again & again. To cause a reaction? Well that & the "lower end of the gene pool". bad me!!! HOWEVER!!!!!! Whippets were bred as SMALL racers that fitted under a miners coat. So the 21" racer is as much off the beaten track as it can be.

 

[Cartman]

Just to add another thought to this bit of the discussion.
Is it possible that with straighter angles the animal can move faster because it doesn't take as long for the angle to do the work it is required to do because it doesn't have to travel as far?

Here I go again. I will get into trouble for sure.

I think the more the angle, the more work it can do. There for propelling forward further. It is a matter of economics. The more the angle,the more propelling. The straighter the angle, less effort. But must do this action far too many times to cover the same ground.

Take 2 whippets of the same build. One with the low flowing gait. one with high hackney. Which one will walk over more ground with the same amount of "strides"?

 

[Strike Whippets]

the 21" racer is as much off the beaten track as it can be.

What about the 35lbs plus show bred WHIPPETS who are 23 inches plus ??? .........As for the racing bred Whippets comments !!! I just can't be bothered to even go there !!!!

Plus i really don't think there is any reason to be so rude to people

 

[dessie]

Here I go again. I will get into trouble for sure.I think the more the angle, the more work it can do. There for propelling forward further. It is a matter of economics.

[SIZE=21pt]LOL [/SIZE]

Sorry to laugh but for ECONOMICS shouldn't we read ERGONOMICS!!!

 

[whipowill]

Just to add another thought to this bit of the discussion.
Is it possible that with straighter angles the animal can move faster because it doesn't take as long for the angle to do the work it is required to do because it doesn't have to travel as far?

Here I go again. I will get into trouble for sure.

I think the more the angle, the more work it can do. There for propelling forward further. It is a matter of economics. The more the angle,the more propelling. The straighter the angle, less effort. But must do this action far too many times to cover the same ground.

Take 2 whippets of the same build. One with the low flowing gait. one with high hackney. Which one will walk over more ground with the same amount of "strides"?

I should have qualified my comments by adding that I was referring to the dog at a gallop.

I have no problems with what is accepted conformation for the trot of the dog in a show ring. I agree good angles, good balance and sufficient length, and no other obvious faults e.g. cow hocks etc = leads to good movement for the show ring.

 

[Veredon]

A disscussion about racing greyhounds was disscussed on this forum not so long ago,about their conformation and lack of it! Not all correctly conformed greyhounds were the fastest.Both Jax and I used to work at greyhound racing tracks and good confirmation could be seen on some dogs while they were being paraded,extemely poor confirmation could been seen on others,this didn't seem to stop the worse conformed greyhounds winning the races on a regular basis.My point is that at the end of the day,dog shows are canine beauty contests,and good conformation is paramount,if a dog has short upper arms,and wrong angulation,it should be faulted shouldn't it? were breeding to a standard.Dogs with short upper arms can still move fast over short distances but to the standard this is wrong because it fails in conformation doesn't it? The dogs with short upper arms cann't stride out as efficiently as the correct conformed dogs -that to me is obvious.As I said previously,true movers move efficiently striding out at any pace,changes in pace shouldn't effect them.

guess were all signing our real names now!!! Russell Sykes

 

[dessie]

What about the 35lbs plus show bred WHIPPETS who are 23 inches plus ???

What about them???

 

[Morgan]

I agree that there is nothing wrong with having a debate about various topics but why do we have to get the personal jibes going especially if you have a different view from what others are saying?? We are all allowed our own opinion, it's a free country!!!

I do agree with Dessie on that but however I can understand also that some opinions can "get on nerves"!!! (I don't know if it means anything for you, it's a translation from French :b ).

For us in France as you know to get the French Champion title, the dog definitly needs to show his running ability, so most of the "show whippets" still do some racing and/or coursing. The French Whippet Club politic is to aim for a whippet "beautifull and good", which means very close to the standard + showing running abilities. Personnaly I am not very "keen" on racing my dogs but they enjoy it so....

At the French Specialty Show there is a special class called "competition class" (to enter in this class the dog has to have been finalist of the french racing or coursing championship or semi finalist of the European championship) which means every year you have the best racing dogs in that class. Once a judge told me he was very surprised to see such dogs. This judge is a very respected breed specialist (no name ). He thought those dogs examplify an other form of exaggeration and some hardly looked like whippets. Year after year the dogs go faster and more and more the dogs loose the combination of power and elegance very clearly mentionned on the standard. So there can be an exageration on both "sides" (racing, showing). Exageration is something to avoid in any breed.

Also a successfull "racing" breeder who has had both European and World Racing champions explained to me how should a good racing dog look.... He said straight angulation in front, flat topline etc.... Thoses two criteria are very different from what is described in the standard, so to have the best running abilities should we change the standard???? I don't think so!!!!

So please stop this "RACING VERSUS SHOWING" debate!!!!! Whippet movement was an intersting topic, so please :huggles: !!!!

 

[Strike Whippets]

I think the more the angle, the more work it can do. There for propelling forward further. It is a matter of economics. The more the angle,the more propelling.

That would explain why so many show bred Whippets are now over angulated then .......It's ment to make them cover the ground better whilst being shown :thumbsup: .......I personally thought that over angulation was a huge fault and this would weaken the hock to much in a running dog resulting in broken/fractured hocks ....but then i guess if the fastest these dogs go is a trot around a ring then i suppose this problem won't arise :- " .........

 

[Strike Whippets]

What about the 35lbs plus show bred WHIPPETS who are 23 inches plus ???

What about them???

I was replying to cartmans 21" racing Whippet comment .......A whippet is a Whippet, so if he thinks 21" is big, why does he think it's exceptable for a show bred Whippet to be bigger ?? :wacko:

 

[Cartman]

the 21" racer is as much off the beaten track as it can be.

What about the 35lbs plus show bred WHIPPETS who are 23 inches plus ??? .........As for the racing bred Whippets comments !!! I just can't be bothered to even go there !!!!

Plus i really don't think there is any reason to be so rude to people

23" show whippets. True, there are quite a few. Some even bigger. Some win a lot too. But you will not find me with a whippet that big, or even use one that big. I have though breed some that size. Yep, I have. But I never kept any that strayed that far from the standard.

Hannah, the other statements in your quote. I will not alter them. But only to say they look semi missquoted. That is they did not refer to any one person in particular, or any whippet for that fact. I did have an example in mind when I said that.

Rude??? Well, it was part of the theme for the day. I hope you did take notice as to the number of insults that were said, & by who.

 

[dessie]

I do agree with Dessie on that but however I can understand also that some opinions can "get on nerves"!!! (I don't know if it means anything for you, it's a translation from French    :b ).

Oh Yes!! We have exactly the same saying over here!!!

Unfortunately I don't think we will ever stop the racing versus showing thing over here because there is such a big divide.

I am all for having a 'qualifier' for the full ch title like gundogs have to but, again, the KC would have to stage separate qualifying events because the show dogs really can't compete with the pure racers. As it is also so difficult to get into coursing I do not know why dogs cannot qualify from a properly organised lure coursing event. They are still running and showing their ability aren't they??

Changing the subject slightly, I also see that the Whippet Club have dropped the Lure Coursing classes from their show but still have a Racing/Coursing class ......... for dogs that have run at a recognised racing or coursing club. Why can't they extend it to include the dogs that lure course with the BSFA??? Seems a bit like discrimination to me!! LOL

 

[Cartman]

Carefull Dessie. You might say something funny.

Now, 21" That was in reply to MR. Smit who first mentioned 21"

"Over angulation". I did not say that. I said "more". I dont like OVER esp. in the rear end. A nice balance will work more "economically".