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Harness or Collar?

Just dropping in to confirm prong collars, when used properly, are self correcting tools and yanking is incorrect use and is going to hurt the dog...Also no puppy is appropriate for a prong ever. The prongs don't HURT (they cause discomfort but not pain) as long as the collar is used properly. Yanking is not proper use of any training tool. Handler corrections are not necessary when a dog is worked on a prong and as far as I'm concerned correcting a dog on a prong is misuse of the collar. They should seldom be recommended to your every day dog owner. Most dogs won't jam with them and most handlers don't know how they're meant to be used.

Violet, I highly doubt Olive would benefit from a prong. They are designed to spread pressure evenly around the neck to prevent damage to the throat when the dog applies pressure, and cause discomfort when the dog pulls so the pressure the dog is pulling with will be eased anyway, which further protects the neck (less force from the dog + even spread of pressure). A well made and fitted harness would do the same job for Olive with less risk (physical/mental).

Have you decided on a harness/collar?
 
I've yet to see a dog wearing a choke chain who stops pulling because they're half strangling themselves, and I expect prong collars would be similar. Plus, what happens if a dog lunges at another one? That would have the effect of a sharp yank and cause actual pain (and potentially damage). Result - one highly stressed scared dog who is now even more anxious and therefore reactive when meeting other dogs. Even if they do actually stop lunging at other dogs, they're doing so out of fear - the aim of training should be that they can feel calm and relaxed around other dogs and this is the opposite. It can result in a severely shut-down dog who if given the opportunity would now like to tear the throat out of the other dog...
 
That's why they shouldn't be recommended to most people. A properly used prong is going to be put on a trained dog who does not pull consistently. It's going to be used to refine a behaviour the dog already knows. A dog won't put consistent pressure on a prong collar like they do with other collars because of how it feels. If you're using a prong then you'd better keep your eyes peeled for anything your dog might react with a lunge for, as being the first one to notice a trigger comes under "correct use of the prong". If your dog reacts before you and he's wearing a prong then YES, it's going to hurt. It also means the collar isn't being used properly.

Prongs don't stop reactivity, no tool does. Training does, and there are training tools that can help, supposing the dog AND handler are compatible with the same tool, whether it's a prong or a martingale. Any tool that is misused can result in the dog shutting down, redirecting to the handler and worsening whatever problem caused the handler to use the tool in the first place. A prong is a specialist tool. Like I said, they shouldn't be recommended for most dogs as the majority of dogs will not work well with that type of tool, and the majority of owners do not know how to correctly use them. They'll put them on as a quick fix and that's not how it works. A prong isn't appropriate for untrained dogs. It's not a management tool, it's a training tool and should only be used alongside positive training by somebody who knows what they are doing.

Definitely not something to recommend on this thread imo.
 
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https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B016IDJEEK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
This is what Logan wears when we go for walks but isn't short lead training. On the retractable lead he can pull like a tractor sometimes but thats the small price you pay for safety (the dogs, not your own shoulder) comfort and limited freedom. On a similar note we have been trying a Halti headcollar for heel/short lead work with varying success. It works great but Logan is constantly fouling his front paws over the lead (has anyone had similar issues and how did they overcome them). Will persevere with it as the stutter-stepping/freeing his paws is favourable to a dislocated shoulder :/
 
Neil.W said:
... we've been trying a Halti headcollar for heel/ short-lead work, with varying success.
It works great, but Logan constantly [steps] over the lead [with] his front paws - has anyone had similar issues, and how did they overcome them?
Will persevere with it, as stutter-stepping/ freeing his paws is preferable to a dislocated shoulder :/
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teach him to clear his paws on his own - practice this at home, when U aren't walking him. :)

tap the back of his leg with the edge of the leash, tapping the leg of whichever paw is currently over, to encourage him to lift it.
Stand STILL, & tap the back of that leg, down near his wrist-pad, with the edge of his leash; does he understand a clicker?
Marking the instant that he lifts the paw to let the leash slip out-from-under with a click, or any other marker, helps clarify what we're looking for, & will speed up the process beautifully.

Tapping -low- on his leg, near his pastern / wrist, is much-more likely to prompt him to lift his paw. ;)
Usually, it's the near leg [right fore when he's on yer left, left fore when he's on yer right] that steps-over & fouls the leash.

Once he grasps the communication behind the leash-tap on his lower leg, lifting his paw to free his head & clear the leash can become an almost automatic response; my Akita wore a headcollar most of the time in public, & she would lift her paw / clear the leash without even raising her head from sniffing, during a pause in a walk.

- terry

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Dog-Mum said:
I have a question also, I wonder is citronella bark collars safe? I am going to purchase it for my Lab. 6 Best Citronella Bark Collars' Review - Perfect Choices for Your Dog. They say that it is safe, how you recommend me?
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No. On many levels.

First, if you use it to punish an undesirable behaviour, your dog (who is at any time doing many things like sniffing, watching, listening, thinking PLUS what you don't want him to do) cannot isolate what it is that causes the citronella spray. So he isn't learning what he is supposed to change. For that to happen, you have to train a separate, alternative behaviour (sit, paw, roll over, anything) that you can request when he starts doing the thing you want him to stop.

Second, the scent lingers on his coat for a long time so that makes it even harder for him to understand what is wrong.

Third, your dog's nose is infinitely more sensitive than ours. That makes the unpleasant smell far more intense.

Fourth, other dogs in the area can be hit by the spray too. They haven't even done anything wrong.

Why don't you tell us what your dog is doing that you want to change and perhaps we can suggest how to train an alternative behaviour.
 
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JoanneF said:
No. On many levels.

First, if you use it to punish an undesirable behaviour, your dog (who is at any time doing many things like sniffing, watching, listening, thinking PLUS what you don't want him to do) cannot isolate what it is that causes the citronella spray. So he isn't learning what he is supposed to change. For that to happen, you have to train a separate, alternative behaviour (sit, paw, roll over, anything) that you can request when he starts doing the thing you want him to stop.

Second, the scent lingers on his coat for a long time so that makes it even harder for him to understand what is wrong.

Third, your dog's nose is infinitely more sensitive than ours. That makes the unpleasant smell far more intense.

Fourth, other dogs in the area can be hit by the spray too. They haven't even done anything wrong.

Why don't you tell us what your dog is doing that you want to change and perhaps we can suggest how to train an alternative behaviour.
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Thank you for your detailed argumentation :) I'll tell you about my problem. I love walking with my Lab. Jessy is also crazy about walking, but the problem is that, she starts barking at other dogs. While she barks, other dogs respond consequently and it makes me nervous and I don't know how to act. I think that Jessy also feels my nervousness and situation is getting worse.
 
I think I said on your other thread about keeping distance. You may be expecting to see results too soon - this is an issue that will take weeks, months to resolve. If you are still getting barking you are still too close.

I will repost it below just for ease of use.
:)
JoanneF said:
She will have an invisible radius of space around her where she feels secure . Find out what that is and keep her far enough away from other dogs that she is relaxed. Reward this calm behaviour. Gradually, (expect this to take weeks or months, not days) work on reducing the distance. But - be aware that if your dog has had a stressful episode the stress hormone can stay in the body for up to 48 hours so a distance she was comfortable with the day before might be too close that day. So the safe distance can change, watch her body language. It takes time but it is do-able.

Alongside that you could train a 'watch me'. As your dog looks at you, mark and reward the behaviour. Ask for longer periods of watching. Then if a dog approaches, after you have worked on the distance issue, you can get your dog to focus on you and not the other dog.
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Harness in the car. Collar on walks. Morning walk ordinary leash then free running. Extending leash afternoon/evening. He never goes to the full extent of the leash. He walks with me with stops for sniffing. He doesn't pull. Am I just lucky?
 
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thank Goddess! -
I thought the DEFRA studies would finally kill the ever-recurring human desire for "instant" results, as they proved very conclusively that even when used for one of those 'Special' problem behaviors that spozedly shock is just DESIGNED to fix, in fact, pos-R worked as well or even better.

When shock definitively doesn't address even livestock-chasing or game-chasing any better than does rewarding the dog when s/he turns away from the sheep, deer, or what-have-U, U'd think folks would open their eyes & stop demanding new & harsher punishments to "fix" problem behaviors. But no - humans are queer folk, & can rationalize anything, including denying that shock hurts, or denying that the dog may have no idea what the "punishment" is for - it's just a sudden startling pain out of the blue, without context or reason.

Ya know what _i_ think? --- that we need a new species name; "thinking man" is oxymoronic; we don't spend sufficient time thinking, that's exactly how we get into such disastrous messes.
I vote for Homo impulsiva - "impulsive [hu]man", gender neutral / plural form. Collectively, we've got the attn-span of gnats, the greed of a 3-YO, & all the self-control of a toddler in a tantrum.

- terry

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I can't say much about e collars as I think they are bizarre! I've never used one. I've got this thing where if I wouldn't wear the collar myself, I can't put it on the dog. I've taken a few electric fences to the shin in my time but that's as far as my experience goes. Electric shock therapy used to be common among mentally ill people as well which I think is mad.
 
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Electroconvulsive shock is still used, today -

Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) - About - Mayo Clinic
https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/electroconvulsive-therapy/.../pac-203938...
Jan 16, 2018 -
Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) is a procedure, done under general anesthesia, in which small electric currents are passed through the brain, intentionally triggering a brief seizure. ECT seems to cause changes in brain chemistry that can quickly reverse symptoms of certain mental illnesses.

It's not used as often, & it's better controlled, plus the patient is unconscious - but humans can agree with informed consent to a procedure; dogs do not choose to be zapped by shock-collars, they sign no consent form, & wouldn't understand what was on it, if they did. :(
- terry

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Always a harness. In rescue occasionally you see dogs (bulls breeds sadly) with actual damage to the larynx from choke chains...but my feeling is even a leather collar could do damage if used harshly and repeatedly. Also stressed and very energetic dogs can become addicted to the pull/choke response. (It's a bit like self-harm.)
 
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I like w-i-d-e limited-slip sighthound collars, AKA martingale collars.

This is my all-time favorite maker -
Dog Collar Collections | MrsBones

she uses nylon webbing as the foundation, covers it inside & out with ribbon [Ur choice outside, complementary color inside], uses the same SOLID sand-cast brass hardware as Coach bags do - no bent metal, no gaps, no welds; they are a solid hunk of metal, & will never fail.

FYI:
don't choose any design with long satin-stitch trim of metallic thread - it will break at the ends when the dog scratches casually, & U'll end up with tinsel frazzles. :rolleyes: OTOH, i have Mrs Bones collars that are 15-YO, & they look barely used. I wash them in my laundry, in a pillowcase or a mesh bag, to protect the washer from the hardware, & i hang them to dry at room-temp.

- terry

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Have only had Dudley a couple of years and didn't know much about dos, particularly puppies. However had kept horses for over thirty years and know that harsher and harsher bits do not improve the horses behaviour. I worked out that the same thing would work for my little pup. A harness is not good for him as even a custom made one rubbed the fur off under his front legs.
He walks well in a collar and he quite honestly does not pull. OK he is little but walks very well by my side.
 
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