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Whippet with upset tummy.

hello sandra. Lilly is certainly a beautiful girl. I have a blue boy ( and 3 others aged 1 to 15). I have had experience of whippets with problem guts and know just how stressful it is when you think you're getting somewhere only to have them get ill again. i currently have one with protein losing enteropathy - a challenge -but so far we are winning - although it didn't feel that way at 4 o'clock this morning in the garden in my dressing gown!

if you don't mind i would like to tell you my( almost random) thoughts about your situation- which has been on my mind a bit,  and what i've done in the past. i think you are probably dealing with a food sensitivity. if your vet is happy that lilly's bloods are fine - ruling out PLE and pancreatitis and her poop  also clear then i would be looking to it being a problem with her gut. Small intestine bacterial overgrowth is something to condsider as well - i suspect that is why your vet gave you Tylosin as i think that is the standard treatment .

I would recommend having a look at the website Nutriscan.org. This a place that you can use to carry out food sensitivity testing. I think that it is probably the best available tool at the moment for food related issues. It costs about £300 or so. I have used it twice  for different dogs. i wouldn't hesitate to do it again. i feel that if this test had been available years ago i might have had a chance of saving one of our dogs who's  gut was ultimately the cause of her demise.

I would be feeding a probiotic, the one i've used is Protexin synbiotic. These capsules have a high amount of both pre and pro biotics . i got them from hyperdrug.com where i get all my doggy supplements and supplies. i also feed Dorwest's Tree Barks Powder. You can phone them for advice-01308 897272 or e-mail them.

with food sensitivities the idea is to feed a novel protein source such as ostrich, venison, kangaroo etc.  there are a number of companies out there i am using food from Trovet which i get from petfoodwarehouse.co.uk. i would if possible be feeding raw but sometimes this is not an option .some of the ready made raw products have an awful lot of ingredients in them which may make it more difficult  for you to pin down what might be irritating to lilly.

the wet royal canin gastrointestinal does not only contain chicken and rice. it has meat and meat by products, fish and fish by products , veg and veg by products and cereals. this non specific list of ingredients makes it impossible to know what lilly is actually getting. the dry version is a bit better with a shorter list of more specific ingredients listed and might be worth a try.

you say lilly gets mince, if it is beef i think that beef may be one of the more troublesome proteins. i was wondering if the cold mince has less fat in it than the warm mince and may be the amount of fat affects whether she is ill or not.

i wondered if the treats that you feed would be different from the treats at the dog sitters and whether that might hold a clue

i feed my adult whippets two meals a day, i wondered if 3 meals means her gut has to work more often - maybe never getting a rest? 

i know how hard it is to cope with something that seems intermittent, you think you're on top of it and then it flares up again - it's both exhausting and demoralizing.
 
gypsysmum2 said:
I would be as concerned as you are. So don't worry about going on about it :)

If you are insured could you ask for a referral? I agree that the colonoscopy seems to be a bit of a step too far at this stage, especially if she is well in herself. A specialist might just spot something that has been missed.

My latest rescue had pooping issues for ages. His was formed poop but he would do it in the house at night. I finally tracked it down to being any kind of bone material in his diet. Even a calcium supplement (bone meal?) would cause it. His gut wall must be very sensitive (he had giardia before I got him) and it cannot cope with any kind of bulky hard material in it. He just had to expel it there and then.

I assume your dog has been tested for giardia? They usually do it from a poo sample. Worth ringing your vet and asking for someone to check all the tests to make sure it was included.
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Lilly came to us as a puppy with giardia and it has been spotted in earlier poo samples when she was younger. She's been on and off antibiotics all her little life. The last sample came back negative. Lilly was ill again Friday night but not so bad as before. She was ok Saturday and Sunday night. It was starting to look like she would be ill every other night!! We're going to keep writing in the diary this week and see how she is. I'm writing everything down. I hope it shows some kind of pattern.

That was good detective work finding out your rescue dog had a problem with bone material!

Thank you for all your helpful advice.
 
JoanneF said:
I might be way off here but something occurred to me.

She was ok after the op, and she was ok with the sitter. After her op, she would probably be exercising less - did you reduce her food? Is it possible at all on her normal regime that you are overfeeding? If her sitter gave less and she had less after her spey could that be a key? Overfeeding does cause runny tummies. I don't know if it's possible but thought it was worth a mention.
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I just wrote a really long reply here and somehow it's disappeared ha ha. But if you do get it twice I apologise. It basicly said .. I didn't know overfeeding did that! We do feed her 3 times a day! She can get so skinny when ill so when she's well we like her to eat well. I have told the vet that's what we feed her and he didn't say it was too much. It works out at 1 and a half tins a day with mince, then treats on top. You may have a point! She has an hour and half walk with zoomies at lunchtime and another 30-40 mins walk in the even. Does that seem ok food to exercise ratio? She eats once back from both walks. Breakfast she just eats then goes back to sleep.
 
dogmatize said:
hello sandra. Lilly is certainly a beautiful girl. I have a blue boy ( and 3 others aged 1 to 15). I have had experience of whippets with problem guts and know just how stressful it is when you think you're getting somewhere only to have them get ill again. i currently have one with protein losing enteropathy - a challenge -but so far we are winning - although it didn't feel that way at 4 o'clock this morning in the garden in my dressing gown!

if you don't mind i would like to tell you my( almost random) thoughts about your situation- which has been on my mind a bit,  and what i've done in the past. i think you are probably dealing with a food sensitivity. if your vet is happy that lilly's bloods are fine - ruling out PLE and pancreatitis and her poop  also clear then i would be looking to it being a problem with her gut. Small intestine bacterial overgrowth is something to condsider as well - i suspect that is why your vet gave you Tylosin as i think that is the standard treatment .

I would recommend having a look at the website Nutriscan.org. This a place that you can use to carry out food sensitivity testing. I think that it is probably the best available tool at the moment for food related issues. It costs about £300 or so. I have used it twice  for different dogs. i wouldn't hesitate to do it again. i feel that if this test had been available years ago i might have had a chance of saving one of our dogs who's  gut was ultimately the cause of her demise.

I would be feeding a probiotic, the one i've used is Protexin synbiotic. These capsules have a high amount of both pre and pro biotics . i got them from hyperdrug.com where i get all my doggy supplements and supplies. i also feed Dorwest's Tree Barks Powder. You can phone them for advice-01308 897272 or e-mail them.

with food sensitivities the idea is to feed a novel protein source such as ostrich, venison, kangaroo etc.  there are a number of companies out there i am using food from Trovet which i get from petfoodwarehouse.co.uk. i would if possible be feeding raw but sometimes this is not an option .some of the ready made raw products have an awful lot of ingredients in them which may make it more difficult  for you to pin down what might be irritating to lilly.

the wet royal canin gastrointestinal does not only contain chicken and rice. it has meat and meat by products, fish and fish by products , veg and veg by products and cereals. this non specific list of ingredients makes it impossible to know what lilly is actually getting. the dry version is a bit better with a shorter list of more specific ingredients listed and might be worth a try.

you say lilly gets mince, if it is beef i think that beef may be one of the more troublesome proteins. i was wondering if the cold mince has less fat in it than the warm mince and may be the amount of fat affects whether she is ill or not.

i wondered if the treats that you feed would be different from the treats at the dog sitters and whether that might hold a clue

i feed my adult whippets two meals a day, i wondered if 3 meals means her gut has to work more often - maybe never getting a rest? 

i know how hard it is to cope with something that seems intermittent, you think you're on top of it and then it flares up again - it's both exhausting and demoralizing.
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Thank you for your message. This all sounds like good advice. We did get the dry version of the food but then she was ill so I stopped giving it to her. It does sound like we're overfeeding her. We do give her 3 meals a day. I think because she was sick bright yellow bile in the mornings I worried she was so empty I wasn't feeding enough. Plus, when she gets ill she can become very skinny. We thought it better she had a bit of weight on her to lose. She's been ok Saturday and Sunday. I'm keeping a diary and now after reading all my messages I'll cut down feeding a bit and see what happens. Thank you again for writing.
 
LillyBlue said:
Thank you for your message. This all sounds like good advice. We did get the dry version of the food but then she was ill so I stopped giving it to her. It does sound like we're overfeeding her. We do give her 3 meals a day. I think because she was sick bright yellow bile in the mornings I worried she was so empty I wasn't feeding enough. Plus, when she gets ill she can become very skinny. We thought it better she had a bit of weight on her to lose. She's been ok Saturday and Sunday. I'm keeping a diary and now after reading all my messages I'll cut down feeding a bit and see what happens. Thank you again for writing.
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I forgot to say.. I can totally sympathise with you walking around the garden at 4am in the morning! It's horrible seeing them ill and not being able to do anything about it too. I've also just Googled protein losing enteropathy. Your poor whippet, it sounds painful and must be very worrying for you. I've also looked up Pancreatitis. I'm assuming the vet would have looked for these but also her general health seems ok. There was no pain when the vet prodded and poked her tummy. She is fill of beans when awake, always pestering me to play in the evenings.
 
LillyBlue said:
Lilly came to us as a puppy with giardia and it has been spotted in earlier poo samples when she was younger. She's been on and off antibiotics all her little life. The last sample came back negative. Lilly was ill again Friday night but not so bad as before. She was ok Saturday and Sunday night. It was starting to look like she would be ill every other night!! We're going to keep writing in the diary this week and see how she is. I'm writing everything down. I hope it shows some kind of pattern.
Click to expand...
Giardia can re occur. My dog had it, before I got him, and I was told that it makes the gut lining quite sensitive. This may be why my dog cannot tolerate bulky things like bone meal.  When my dog had diarrhoea, recently, my vet was ready to treat for Giardia again if the antibiotics had not worked. A vet nurse friend said that her dog had it and always did lots of small faeces throughout the day.
 
gypsysmum2 said:
Giardia can re occur. My dog had it, before I got him, and I was told that it makes the gut lining quite sensitive. This may be why my dog cannot tolerate bulky things like bone meal.  When my dog had diarrhoea, recently, my vet was ready to treat for Giardia again if the antibiotics had not worked. A vet nurse friend said that her dog had it and always did lots of small faeces throughout the day.
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Lilly was ok last night! 3 nights sleep in a row. Bliss!

One of the vets said it may be that her tummy is harbouring Giardia and it's not getting killed off completely so it keeps coming back, but the tests say it's not showing up. He just wanted to control it with Tylosin when it flares up. I've been going along with this for awhile but now the flare ups are much more frequent. She's on antibiotics more than she's not. That's when I went to a different vet that gave her more Tylosin (bescaue it works) and the fibre pellets. Have to say the fibre pellets didn't make any difference. When she's well she does a morning poo (normal size) at about 11.30am then a lunchtime poo (sometimes 2 poos on one walk) at about 1.45pm then a tiny tiny poo (hardly worth the poo bag) at about 6.30pm. When ill she will have diarrhea every hour throughout the night, then no poos the next day. I don't know what the normal amount of pooing is that she should be doing.

I'm going to see how she is this week and keep writing the diary, then I'll have more information to tell the vet.

Thank you for your support.
 
You say she is more like an Italian Greyhound than a Whippet so she is pooing quite a lot. This may sort itself out when you reduce the amount of food she has. When normal she can go from 6.30pm right through to 11.30am. That is quite a long time so it shows that she is able to hold on when she is well.

When they test for Giardia do they take several samples or just the one? You have noticed that the Tylosin works so is it that she is just re infecting with Giardia each time and that is why it is so intermittent? A friend told me that it is in the environment and can be picked up anywhere. Mostly damp places apparently. I am sure that my dog acquired it in the rescue kennels. Another friend's dog got if from a stray cat she took in.
 
gypsysmum2 said:
You say she is more like an Italian Greyhound than a Whippet so she is pooing quite a lot. This may sort itself out when you reduce the amount of food she has. When normal she can go from 6.30pm right through to 11.30am. That is quite a long time so it shows that she is able to hold on when she is well.

When they test for Giardia do they take several samples or just the one? You have noticed that the Tylosin works so is it that she is just re infecting with Giardia each time and that is why it is so intermittent? A friend told me that it is in the environment and can be picked up anywhere. Mostly damp places apparently. I am sure that my dog acquired it in the rescue kennels. Another friend's dog got if from a stray cat she took in.
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She is a small whippet. Her mum was only 16" and Lilly seems a tiny bit smaller. She can hold it for a very long time! if it's raining she will hold it longer!! She does a last pee at 9.30-10pm but not a poo.

The vet asks for a sample from 3 different poos. The last test was from one of her nightly bouts. I picked them up in the morning from 3 different places. It could be that the bacteria died before it got to the vets if the antibiotics were still in her system? Can that happen? I walk her in the forest every lunchtime which is very muddy at the min. May be it's even still in my garden! What a minefield it is! Mushrooms, mouldy bread (we live next to a pond and people leave bread everywhere for the ducks and birds), acorns, Ivy, toads (we have one behind the shed and she barks at it at night) .... I'm suprised I've managed to keep her alive this long!! ha ha!
 
I do so feel for you. Let's hope that something comes from you keeping a diary.

When Tigan had his diarrhoea recently the vet asked if he drank from puddles. He wouldn't go near a puddle, normally, in case he got his feet wet (ha ha) but he had been drinking from them just before the diarrhoea. Local dog walkers reported a spate of v + d in dogs and their vets had blamed it on "something in the soil" that happens in hot weather. Now, are these two things linked, and are the vets all talking about Giardia? I have asked the new moderators on this forum if they can recruit a vet or a vet nurse to explain all these things (I did work as a vet nurse when I first left school but I am not admitting how many years ago that was!)
 
Ha ha Lilly's the same, doesn't like getting her feet wet. I know where the muddy puddles are on my walk so I'm quite good at keeping her from them. Odd occasions she has out smarted me but I've not known her to be ill on those occasions.

I think my vet latched on to the Giardia harbouring idea because nothing else has every shown up on the tests apart from this. But that was when she was 8 weeks old and again not long after that. She's 2 and a half now and still getting ill with negative test results. The last vet just said it could be anything and didn't seem worried. I think he's fed up of seeing me ha ha.

She was well last night, I'm hoping whatever it was is out of her system. But I can never relax because I'm always waiting for it to happen again. She's out with the dog walker today and last Wednesday night she was ill. Lets see what happens tonight.
 
If your vet is fed up with seeing you then they start to think outside the box. Vets see cases of diarrhoea several times in each surgery session and there are at least two surgery sessions a day. They can become a bit blasé about it. If you keep seeing the same vet it may trigger them to think that this is not normal in any dog. If you think they are not taking you seriously then ask for a referral to a specialist. There are some neurotic owners out there and you just have to convince your vet that you are not one of them.

My old lurcher had a sore on her toe that just refused to heal. I took her to the vets' several times and they gave the usual advice about keeping it clean and preventing it from rubbing against the next toe (!). This entailed me dressing the foot several times a day. My back was killing me from all the bending and bandaging! I, eventually, asked for the clinical director of the practice when I next phoned for an appointment. I saw her a couple of times and she then became concerned about the non healing toe. She did bloods which threw up a thyroid problem and, eventually. a tumour on her adrenal gland was discovered. Such a tiny, tiny symptom, that I am sure I was labelled as being a bit neurotic over, was caused by a major problem.
 
gypsysmum2 said:
If your vet is fed up with seeing you then they start to think outside the box. Vets see cases of diarrhoea several times in each surgery session and there are at least two surgery sessions a day. They can become a bit blasé about it. If you keep seeing the same vet it may trigger them to think that this is not normal in any dog. If you think they are not taking you seriously then ask for a referral to a specialist. There are some neurotic owners out there and you just have to convince your vet that you are not one of them.

My old lurcher had a sore on her toe that just refused to heal. I took her to the vets' several times and they gave the usual advice about keeping it clean and preventing it from rubbing against the next toe (!). This entailed me dressing the foot several times a day. My back was killing me from all the bending and bandaging! I, eventually, asked for the clinical director of the practice when I next phoned for an appointment. I saw her a couple of times and she then became concerned about the non healing toe. She did bloods which threw up a thyroid problem and, eventually. a tumour on her adrenal gland was discovered. Such a tiny, tiny symptom, that I am sure I was labelled as being a bit neurotic over, was caused by a major problem.
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What a good thing you kept going back! Our vets is a husband and wife team with one other vet employed. I've seem all three of them at some point. I agree the next time I go I'll ask to see a specialist. Lilly has now been well for 6 nights!! I'll keep you posted. Thank you for all your help and advice.
 
I thought you might like to know Lilly has been well for nearly 3 weeks!! It's broken the every 2 weeks cycle that turned in to the every other day cycle.

I'd just like to thank everyone for responding to my post. It's been a great help having people to talk about this with. I'm very grateful.

I wish you and your dogs the very best.

Sandra
 
Thank you for the update. Well done to you for putting in all the research. Let us know if you find out the cause.
 
Hello, Lilly's ill again. It started at 3am Tuesday morning and then had a bit of form at lunchtime but back to diarrhea by the evening and in the night. She does have a lot of poo for a small dog! Between 6pm and 5am she went 6 times.

Looking at my lilly notes there is nothing that stands out. The only thing that keeps happening is she eats things on walks when off lead and I can't get to her. Since I've cut down her food she's worse for scavenging. The day before she was ill in the night, she was off lead and picked up a mushroom that was round and puffy! (she didn't bite it luckily. She likes carrying things gently in her mouth. She will carry a conker which she does drop when I tell her too). She thought the mushroom was a ball so I was able to get her to drop it because she thought I would throw it for her. She'd also eaten something that I've no idea what it was. We also took her to Pets at Home and the lady at the till gave her a treat. My thoughts are it's food poisoning or she's got a tummy bug, or it's an underlying problem that randomly happens and I'm yet to find out what it is.

I don't know what to do next. I would normally go to the vets and they would give me Tylosin which would stop it. Or, should I this time wait it out and see what happens? If it's something she ate would it get better on it's own? Same, if it's a bug would that get better on it's own? I don't want her to suffer though. But she is as bright as a buttom and doesn't seen unwell apart from this.

I'd rather not have to muzzle her on walks, she loves playng ball, but guessing this has to be an option now... unless anyone has any other ideas?

I really hoped she was on a long spell of being well.

Any help welcome.
 
Sorry to hear this. Lily reminds me of my first dog who was an Italian greyhound. They are notorious for having gut troubles and an indeed she had intermittent problems for most of her life- initially caused by bad dietary advice from a vet. I managed her with 2 meals  a day of "chappie" dog meat. The only treats she could tolerate were sugar free chocolate drops and toasted wholemeal bread baked in the oven until hard cut into squares. She lived into her 17th year.

Could Lily not have something special to carry in her mouth badmouthing walks like a toy she loves or something. I have seen special wooden sticks that are safe to chew on Zooplus. Maybe that would help.
 
dogmatize said:
Sorry to hear this. Lily reminds me of my first dog who was an Italian greyhound. They are notorious for having gut troubles and an indeed she had intermittent problems for most of her life- initially caused by bad dietary advice from a vet. I managed her with 2 meals  a day of "chappie" dog meat. The only treats she could tolerate were sugar free chocolate drops and toasted wholemeal bread baked in the oven until hard cut into squares. She lived into her 17th year.

Could Lily not have something special to carry in her mouth badmouthing walks like a toy she loves or something. I have seen special wooden sticks that are safe to chew on Zooplus. Maybe that would help.
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I love italian greyhounds! We were going to get one but after looking into it we thought the Whippet better as a first dog. We meet a lady that had 11! all adorable. How lovely she lived until 17!

We've kept to the same food thinking that she can be well on it and if we change it and she's ill we wont know if it's becasue we've changed it or because of something else.

When she found the childs dummy she carried that on the walk and wouldn't give it up, not even for a treat. I did joke with my partner that we should give it to her when we walk her. She did get a few odd looks ha ha. I'll look into it.

Thank you for your reply.
 
It does sound though it is all the c**p she is scavenging for on walks doesn't it? I have had dogs ill from eating mushrooms and I am sure that I read that conkers are not good for dogs either. You would think that just holding them would not hurt but if her tongue is touching them she will get some of it in her system. My old Whippet used to peel road kill off the road as we walked along. She never had tummy trouble and she suffered from Addisons Disease which pre disposes them to upset guts. They are all different.

If you are able to watch her all the time then teaching her a good "leave it" command would help. Take a look at Kiko Pup on YouTube for tips on how to train it.
 
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