Whats your opinion...Prong Collar

[One dog training]

So I love to watch a variety of dog training videos, Came across one where a guy mainly positive reinforcement training used a prong collar and getting quite quick results, dog calming down, giving a lot more eye contact, less anxious etc. It's my first time of hearing of one of these...What is your experience of these?

Thanks, Sean

 

[JoanneF]

I think there is a big difference between getting a quick result and getting a good result. In fact I usually question why anything gets a quick result. Why for example did the dog suddenly calm? I obviously haven't seen the video but the first thing I would want to assess is whether the dog had closed down rather than become calm. In the theory of behaviour, prong collars are commonly used as an example of negaitve reinforcement - the dog doesn't pull against the prongs in order to avoid the pain. That said, we do have to remember that it is the dog that decides what is aversive. I would never subject my dog to pain; but my trainer does use one of these - it's in her office and she hangs her jacket from it.

 

[niamh123]

I would never use one of these on my dogs,I wouldn't inflict pain on my kids so why would I use one on my dogs who are also family members

 

[Kara 1]

The RSPCA are trying to get prong /pinch collars banned ......

 

[merlina]

Would like to see a video of one of these self-styled 'dog-trainers' being trained with a prong-collar. Bet that would go viral!

 

[JoanneF]

The RSPCA are trying to get prong /pinch collars banned ......

I hope they succeed. There is a reason why a lot of quick fix tools work, the dog ends up too anxious to do anything; so does nothing and too many tv trainers are passing that off as compliance when it's nothing of the kind.

 

[Mad Murphy]

We came home from holiday (1994) and found that my FIL unable to cope with our boistrous Bouvier st Bernard cross, Max had bought one of this things to help control him..

OH said nothing he just took the collar into the garage and cut it into bits with a pair of bolt croppers. It was the last time we ever left a dog of ours with anyone.

 

[BEF]

Prong collar = torture device.
Just like the electric collar and the figure of 8 slip lead.
Why do humans invent such cruel ways of doing what you can do kindly and gently.
Sorry, rant over.

 

[JudyN]

If we don't like half-choke collars we're hardly going to approve of prong collars, are we? Would you use one on a toddler to keep him/her walking nicely by your side? Sure, you'd get quick results but that doesn't make it a good idea.

I posted it not long ago but again, this video shows the difference between a dog taught to walk on lead using aversive methods and one using positive methods:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154814833717001

 

[niamh123]

The poor dog looks petrified of the walker
The other dog looks like he is happy and wants to please the walker

 

[JudyN]

And believe it or not, the one on the left was a dog trainer, who posted it as an example of how successful their training was

 

[Ari_RR]

I just try to apply common sense...

So, every time the dog sees something interesting (another dog, an old lady, a child, a bird...) and tries to come over and investigate or say hello - BAM!! Prongs!! Pain!!

Yeah, probably next time won’t try to come over and say hello, but why would I want my dog to associate new and interesting things, the whole world really, with prongs and pain?

How can this possibly work, if the goal is to have a confident and happy dog?

If, however, the goal is only to control the dogs movement - then it may well work, but that’s not what I am after...

Just my 2 cents. Same for shock collars.

 

[One dog training]

Great! Thanks for the response, like I said...Never come across one or know of anyone who trained with them. Just wanted to get an idea of how they work or why some trainers use them.

It seemed in the video, the main goal he wanted was to get the dog more responsive to him as a base foundation for training, instead of erratic and anxious and trying to escape the lead, which it accomplished. Now whether that was the right choice is up for debate.

 

[JoanneF]

How about linking the video?

 

[Ari_RR]

...the main goal he wanted was to get the dog more responsive to him as a base foundation for training, instead of erratic and anxious and trying to escape the lead...

Of course, a worthy goal.
But when accomplishing, need to look deeper then just the result, and ask - why is the dog responding now?

If because the dog sees the trainer as the most exciting thing in the world, more exciting than all other dogs and humans out there - then great!

But if the dog responds because of fear of being shocked or pronged - while on the surface it may seem the same (“dog responds”) - it’s not.

Now, why some trainers use aversive techniques and tools - I think because it achieves the appearance of compliance (or even true compliance) much faster than positive reinforcement. And that’s a strong selling point for potential customers who don’t know better.

And by the time longer term negative consequences of aversive training pop up - it’s too late, the trainer has long moved on to other clients.

I don’t want to generalize and paint everyone with the same brush. Some I am sure mean well for the dogs and clients, just haven’t researched enough... or old habits die hard... or just don’t believe in “happy/confident” as the primary objective as much as in “compliant/obedient”...

Also - I don’t know for sure, but with positive training business model may be somewhat different, and training itself may require much longer engagement.....

So.... just some thoughts.

And in many videos out there, one can see the dogs responding very well to shock collars and such things, but at the same time if look closer one can also see clear signs of being stressed and frightened.
The one Judy posted above highlights this very well. On the surface - “aversive” dog responds well, but look closer at the dog, and there is a lot to be worried about.

 

[merlina]

It's one of the basic usable theorems of Behavioural Science that negative inputs (pain being the most severe) are a cause of anxiety. The idea that pain stimulus can be used to combat anxiety in a dog is therefore counter-intuitive. But handily enough for these 'trainers' the dog can't report that it's now even more scared.

Though of course you'll always find someone who believes in the old treatment for headache: it involves hitting the sufferer over the head with a sledgehammer. And afterwards they seem to set themselves up as- best not continue this sentence.

 

[BEF]

It's one of the basic usable theorems of Behavioural Science that negative inputs (pain being the most severe) are a cause of anxiety. The idea that pain stimulus can be used to combat anxiety in a dog is therefore counter-intuitive. But handily enough for these 'trainers' the dog can't report that it's now even more scared.

Very true.
When we rescued Whisper she was very happy to go out on a walk but was extremely reactive to dogs and some men.
Eventually we sought the sevices of a 1:1 trainer.
Unfortunately whilst "training" her not to react to dogs by tugging on her lead, shaking a bottle of stones and even ("nudging") poking her every time she reacted. She left Whisper with a complete fear of walks.
I spent months desensitising her until she would walk outside again.
We now love our walks and she is still nervous of other dogs but with positive training she has come a very long way.