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Wcra Talk-in

Macha said:
I have just read quickly through 8 pages of discussion.
Re 200 yd races, I've read that longer races are likely to be safer as the dogs are going slightly slower at the end of the race. For this reason, I would prefer 200 yd to 150 yd. My dogs have raced up to 350 yd straights at lurcher meets, not optimal for whippets, but it makes me certain 200 yd is not too long.

I agree there needs to be some definite height limit; the only reason maybe it should be raised is  to allow import and crossbreeding with American dogs as the standard over there has been higher for decades at least. I personally prefer smaller whippets, 17-19.5 inches.

If the height limit for dogs and bitches is the same perhaps that is fairer competition - unless dogs and bitches are raced separately or if it is proved that bitches are substantially faster than dogs so that a good 21 bitch will almost always be faster than a good 21 inch dog. But in terms of breeding, on average dogs are about an inch taller than bitches and pups are often taller than their parents, so breeders would have to aim to breed about an inch smaller than the limit so that most of the pups who do grow taller will still be able to race. I would race a cryptorchid but I wouldn't breed from him (and I probably wouldn't breed fly-eared dogs either because I show my dogs and I really like the "rose" ears).

I propose that the agenda should discuss weight limits and weight handicaps. There need to be limits and for safety's sake dogs of similar weights should race together. But is the handicapping system fair? My dog doesn't run faster when he weighs in at 30 lbs than when he weighs in at 29 lb. Is the system encouraging breeders to breed extremely light-boned whippets which would not be strong enough to hunt? I think the weight handicap is the greatest problem to people who want to both race and show their dogs.

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If you wish points to be discussed, you will need to get a form from your club sec (Mark isn't it?), have it seconded, and it will need to be submitted to the WCRA by the 31st of this month. It can be e-mailed so you have a few more days :thumbsup:
 
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i and my partner quite prepared to put the issue of height for bitches forward but dont know whether we will be able to attend the talk in, we also have no idea how it all works. i am only a member of a club not a committee member etc, do you have to have a 'special' form to complete, the backing of a committee member etc?
 
maggiemay2 said:
i and my partner quite prepared to put the issue of height for bitches forward but dont know whether we will be able to attend the talk in, we also have no idea how it all works.  i am only a member of a club not a committee member etc, do you have to have a 'special' form to complete, the backing of a committee member etc?
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Mark will have the relevant form.

:thumbsup:

See above post

Jo x
 
Joanna said:
maggiemay2 said:
i and my partner quite prepared to put the issue of height for bitches forward but dont know whether we will be able to attend the talk in, we also have no idea how it all works.  i am only a member of a club not a committee member etc, do you have to have a 'special' form to complete, the backing of a committee member etc?
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Mark will have the relevant form.

:thumbsup:

See above post

Jo x

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thanks for this.

what happens if the committee member/secretary of the club etc doesnt agree with my proposal? is that the end of my proposal?
 
The talk in is also called the representatives meeting. What should happen is that your club are given a list of items on the agenda before the meeting (including yours), as long as the proposal is seconded by another club member, that is acceptable. The reps from your club will be asked to vote on these items at the talk in. If your club is sending reps, they will be expected to vote on behalf of the feelings that the club members have expressed regarding the proposals, it isn't an individual decision (or shouldn't be if your club is a democracy as most clubs are these days :- " )

If you need to know any-thing else, just ask, if I don't know, some-one else will and it is useful to have the information on a public forum for every-one to access :thumbsup:
 
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does any body think we should start racing at 12 insted of 12 4/5 to 1pm ?
 
I personally am happy enough with the present height standards; I just wanted to suggest areas for discussion. If I had a whippet over the limit, it would be nice if there were scope for running the dog for fun at local club races but I wouldn't expect the whippet to be eligible for championship races.

I haven't framed a concrete proposal re weight handicapping but I really think the topic needs to be discussed. Yes, some show whippets are very large boned, but on the racing side I think some breeders are aiming for dogs which are too fine and I wonder if they do this because of the handicapping system rather than because a light dog is a faster dog (and if it is, why are dogs handicapped for weighing more)?
 
Macha said:
I personally am happy enough with the present height standards; I just wanted to suggest areas for discussion. If I had a whippet over the limit, it would be nice if there were scope for running the dog for fun at local club races but I wouldn't expect the whippet to be eligible for championship races.
I haven't framed a concrete proposal re weight handicapping but I really think the topic needs to be discussed. Yes, some show whippets are very large boned, but on the racing side I think some breeders are aiming for dogs which are too fine and I wonder if they do this because of the handicapping system rather than because a light dog is a faster dog (and if it is, why are dogs handicapped for weighing more)?

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Interesting points - but ones we have heard a lot before. The present hight standard is not 21" - this is the upper limit for racing dogs (WCRA Rules). You need to look at the breed standard to see that the racing whippets are in fact closer to the original standard.

The original handicap system was based on time - not weight. But time handicaps are subject to fiddling. A weight handicap system is fairer - but the Championships are a non-handicap event (ie all scratch). Club Opens can run to weight handicaps - as published in the Open ad. I'm sure over size dogs can run at most clubs.

I look forward to discussing your items at the talk-in. :b
 
Macha said:
I personally am happy enough with the present height standards; I just wanted to suggest areas for discussion. If I had a whippet over the limit, it would be nice if there were scope for running the dog for fun at local club races but I wouldn't expect the whippet to be eligible for championship races.
I haven't framed a concrete proposal re weight handicapping but I really think the topic needs to be discussed. Yes, some show whippets are very large boned, but on the racing side I think some breeders are aiming for dogs which are too fine and I wonder if they do this because of the handicapping system rather than because a light dog is a faster dog (and if it is, why are dogs handicapped for weighing more)?

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Some clubs will let your dog run as long as it is KC registered whilst others say they have to be eligible for a passport. The height and weight issue is down to indvidual club rules for club racing and has nothing to do with WCRA rules.

Racing breeders aren't actually aiming for finely built dogs, its the effect of breeding for speed as the faster dogs tend to be finer and leggier than show bred dogs. The bigger dogs are in general faster than the smaller dogs which is why they are handicapped for weight at opens.
 
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Joanna said:
If your club is sending reps, they will be expected to vote on behalf of the feelings that the club members have expressed regarding the proposals, it isn't an individual decision (or shouldn't be if your club is a democracy as most clubs are these days :- " ):

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But so many don't. Some clubs don't even ask their members what they think before the meeting so how can they possibly be voting on behalf of their members? I think its time do do away with representatives vote and let anybody who has taken the trouble to attend do the voting. But of course as we are told at the beginning of each meeting, our votes aren't necessarily going t be complied with anyway.

Do I sound like a grumpy old woman :lol:
 
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?? so can anybody attend the talk in? and where is it held :unsure:
 
I think it's at Oxford this time Julie - previously been at Moreton, but the Cricket Club room isn't really big enough.

I too think that everyone who is willing to attend should have a vote, might make more people attend, and so a broader scope for opinion.

I have already heard people say that their secretaries won't put points forward, as they don't agree with them - thank goodness we have a democratic club at Gloucester. I imagine all items on the Talk-In agenda will be discussed at our AGM, and voting by our club reps will be for what the club has voted, and not necessarily their own opinions. I think that's sad really :( If people bother to travel, it would be nice if their opinions counted for something.
 
Judy said:
Joanna said:
If your club is sending reps, they will be expected to vote on behalf of the feelings that the club members have expressed regarding the proposals, it isn't an individual decision (or shouldn't be if your club is a democracy as most clubs are these days :- " ):

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But so many don't. Some clubs don't even ask their members what they think before the meeting so how can they possibly be voting on behalf of their members? I think its time do do away with representatives vote and let anybody who has taken the trouble to attend do the voting. But of course as we are told at the beginning of each meeting, our votes aren't necessarily going t be complied with anyway.

Do I sound like a grumpy old woman :lol:

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I have always said that the individual should belong to the WCRA rather than the club. I do totally agree with you Judy. It is unfortunate if clubs don't consult the membership on issues and is one of the reasons I love Gloucester as it is so democratic. With the exception of one club which I gather is run very differently now since a change of committee, I have no experience of what happens with regards these issues, but if the information is only reaching the secretary then the whole concept is a complete waste of time!
 
Judy said:
[Do I sound like a grumpy old woman  :lol:

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Erm ....... :)

Ok - I've not been well - and although I didn't read all 12 pages I did read the first 9!

Lose the height limit completely - we have a weight limit in racing and until someone manages to breed a 40" bitch that weighs 19lb that should be enough.

As someone else mentioned - we don't worry about this adherance to the breed standard (which is vague in many places anyway) for things like ears, tails, stance etc. so why the hoo-haa over height, especially when the show ring ignores height standards utterly.

Jane: I started a couple of years before you and you are correct that the lightweights were far less numerous than the middles and heavies - and THAT was why I personally tried to breed tinys - and I'm sure it was in other peoples plans too (whether they admit it or not!) I'm pretty sure though that there has always been fluctuations in the various weight categories - understandable to a degree when we all favour the same few (successful) stud dogs :teehee:

As for bends/straights champs - leave them as they are. They are CLASSICS and should remain that way. There are numerous opportunities to school your dogs around bends if you are prepared to put yourselves to the extra work - if there IS any that is - obviously members at clubs with a permanent bend are well catered for, but most are more than willing to allow guest runners :)
 
springfield said:
Has there ever been a dog entered in the N/E 16lbs group?
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Not only has their been dogs entered in the 16lbs group - there was WCRCh Gen Joe - Swepstone Gem x Queen's Fancy - both 18lbs (Joe won three Champs in 16lbs group) owned by Kevin and Lorraine Wheeler and bred by us Rixons. Springfield you'll have to have a look in my book on the early records of pedigree whippet racing and the quality of bitches he was beating at that time. :D
 
IanGerman said:
Judy said:
[Do I sound like a grumpy old woman  :lol:

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Erm ....... :)

Ok - I've not been well - and although I didn't read all 12 pages I did read the first 9!

Lose the height limit completely - we have a weight limit in racing and until someone manages to breed a 40" bitch that weighs 19lb that should be enough.

As someone else mentioned - we don't worry about this adherance to the breed standard (which is vague in many places anyway) for things like ears, tails, stance etc. so why the hoo-haa over height, especially when the show ring ignores height standards utterly.

Jane: I started a couple of years before you and you are correct that the lightweights were far less numerous than the middles and heavies - and THAT was why I personally tried to breed tinys - and I'm sure it was in other peoples plans too (whether they admit it or not!) I'm pretty sure though that there has always been fluctuations in the various weight categories - understandable to a degree when we all favour the same few (successful) stud dogs :teehee:

As for bends/straights champs - leave them as they are. They are CLASSICS and should remain that way. There are numerous opportunities to school your dogs around bends if you are prepared to put yourselves to the extra work - if there IS any that is - obviously members at clubs with a permanent bend are well catered for, but most are more than willing to allow guest runners :)

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nice post Ian makes perfect sense :thumbsup:
 
Rob Rixon said:
springfield said:
Has there ever been a dog entered in the N/E 16lbs group?
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Not only has their been dogs entered in the 16lbs group - there was WCRCh Gen Joe - Swepstone Gem x Queen's Fancy - both 18lbs (Joe won three Champs in 16lbs group) owned by Kevin and Lorraine Wheeler and bred by us Rixons. Springfield you'll have to have a look in my book on the early records of pedigree whippet racing and the quality of bitches he was beating at that time. :D

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What size were his siblings as would of thought sister would of most probably been smaller than him?
 
IanGerman said:
As for bends/straights champs - leave them as they are. They are CLASSICS and should remain that way. :)
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What CLASSIC - 240 yards bends? 8)

The first bend meetings were 230 yards at Bracknell (70), then at 220 yards Welwyn (71), followed by 250 yards Abbotts Ann, both 250 yards & 285 yards at Newmarket, at Dosthill the track was 230 yards (86) - and these are the tracks used for WCRA champs I can remember - I'm sure there are others.

Then - 150 yards Straight?

There was a 175 yards straight at Abbotts Ann (77), both 165 yards (83) & 175 yards at Stevenage, 175 yards at Plumpton Green and I think there may have been a 185 yards meeting at Newmarket.

I'm sure others can remember other tracks -

So what is the classic distance? :lol:
 
springfield said:
What size were his siblings as would of thought sister would of most probably been smaller than him?
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No. Joe had a brother Sand Runner - ran in Cornwall was 18lbs - I think - Ask Eddie Rowe.

His Sister was Vikkie Plum (half coat & 3rd in Bitch Superstars) - she would run at 17lbs but we got her down into 16lbs WCRA group when necessary.

:)
 
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