Vaccines and boosters..

[Finsky]

I bet some do not even give a though about not vaccinating their dogs or keeping up with boosters...but I'm interested to find out what you all think about it and do with your dogs.
During today's visit to vet I was reminded that our younger one is due her booster in couple of months time. I don't have problem with it, she will have her first booster jab but after that, next year I'm still debating over it.

In past I've had one dog who had quite severe reaction for her booster. And afterwards I sat down to read through manufactures website about their vaccine info and it was quite interesting reading indeed. I found many things that do not come up with vets who get on with the yearly vaccination routine without a hint that it might not even be necessary!
And not only that, I was not aware (and it is partially my fault as well) that dog should be well to receive a vaccination (the reactive dog was slightly under weather with her hormones)..the long acting vaccines should cover dogs immune response up to 10 years...so they should not need be given yearly! Short acting ones like 'Parvo' do not last a full year and often loose their 'coverage' within 6 month AND they do not cover all different strains of parvo virus....so dog can still be infected not only with non-covered strain but the rest of the year after the efficiency has run out.
So all that to me when doing yearly jabs does start sounding bit like 'money making exercise'.
I stopped vaccinating my past dogs after they reached about 5 years of age as thinking that they would have immune coverage for rest of their lives. And certainly they were not worst off with it. Mine have not never been worked to put them into very risky situations..eg farms etc. If they were, then I would seriously think again to have coverage for things like Parvo.
So now that I have had our first two dogs from pups, older one has had her first booster last year and is soon due for a second one..am I going to do it again or not...hmm...yes, possibly. She is still young and would not be covered for rest of her life....OR I have enquired if she could have her immune response coverage tested to see if there is a real need for it. That test is around £50..but she will need taking blood for it..and she might prove to need the booster anyway so adding that too, we might end up around £100 cost in total And there is the matter that having blood taken is not nice for the dog...booster is much easier but I don't like the idea of injection without need for it... Oh choices choices..

So what are your thoughts ...do you keep injecting...or what?

 

[Biker John]

I started having boosters for Folly but after reading quite a bit decided four years ago, (she was 5 then), to have her Titer tested instead. Since then her levels have shown that she still has immunity at a high level. Yes it is not a money saver for me, but fortunately that's not a worry. I intend to continue having her tested annually and see what happens. Again fortunately Folly is good having a blood sample taken, normally giving the vets ear a lick.

 

[Finsky]

I started having boosters for Folly but after reading quite a bit decided four years ago, (she was 5 then), to have her Titer tested instead. Since then her levels have shown that she still has immunity at a high level. Yes it is not a money saver for me, but fortunately that's not a worry. I intend to continue having her tested annually and see what happens. Again fortunately Folly is good having a blood sample taken, normally giving the vets ear a lick.

I've never known anybody who has had their dog Tilter tested (thanks...I was having hard time remembering what it was called) and I've been wondering about it. Ah...interesting indeed that her immunity is proving to be good from almost straight on.
As long as the dog is not too worried about yearly blood test, there is not really that money to be saved when compared to injections anyway.

 

[JudyN]

I get Jasper vaccinated annually for the core diseases and lepto, and every three years for the other ones, on my vet's advice. I'd go for titre testing if there was an easy way of getting blood out of Jasper without him taking blood out of the vet in return

I know immunity can last a lot longer, but don't know if it reliably lasts longer - more research is needed there, but of course it's not in the drug companies' interests to do it (particularly if they suspect it is reliable...).

I've seen the argument that vaccinations only protect against certain strains of parvo or lepto, but that's irrelevant - what is relevant is the risk of contracting the one the vaccination is against. Otherwise it's like turning down a vaccination for one form of hepatitis because it doesn't protect against the others.

The lepto vaccine is one that a lot of people are wary of. My vet - who I trust - told me that he's never seen a case of a serious reaction to the vaccine, and that before the vaccine came in, he saw several fatal cases of leptospirosis - since the vaccine, now he only sees it in dogs who haven't been vaccinated.

 

[Finsky]

I'd go for titre testing if there was an easy way of getting blood out of Jasper without him taking blood out of the vet in return

Opps...it is as that bad!? I know Iida is not bad for getting blood sample..it just that she is so sulky afterwards, but that is least of the worries. Eva....well it is still to be discovered what sort of monster she might turn out to be. Though today's visit looks very encouraging, at least when it comes to making a visit and having her examined.

Thank you for your reply....it is good to hear people's opinions and thoughts to get very varied view of these things. Unfortunately my brain refuses to co-operate when there is too many factors to consider. Reading others thoughts somehow eases that head pressure and makes the thinking/decision process some what easier. Though I'm still sitting on the fence with all the pro's and cons...I might just have to wobble and see which side of the fence I fall

 

[merlina]

I'm averse to too many booster vacs. I've also had two dogs react to the jab- one was off colour for a couple of days- the other (a fit healthy lurcher lad) was so ill we thought he might die. Mine get the full works as a puppy or newly acquired rescue and then...nothing. I've a vet friend who would let me know if there was an outbreak of anything nasty in the area- though I know there's nothing I can do if someone decides to walk an infectious dog through our cut-off little village. So I do take a risk I suppose but feel that vaccination is also a risk. I speak as someone who had a dead arm (really) for seven months after my flu jab one year. The muscle in the arm never returned to full strength. Haven't had another. Though of course if I were offered a Covid 19 get out of jail free jab right now would take it. It's all hazard management, I guess.

 

[JudyN]

Opps...it is as that bad!?

Yup - even the boosters are traumatic. The vet often injects Jasper in the bum because the moment he touches his neck he'll either scream or try to go for him - he's muzzled, but there's no way I can hold him still enough. The bum's a bigger target but last time he still hollered as if he was having his tail amputated when the vet just touched him.

When he had his temperature taken once you'd think the vet was using a red hot poker... and as for when he tried to check his anal glands....

 

[lurcherman]

I was lucky I had two stable dogs when at vets , but the topic of boosters has been going on like forever and I still not sure, mine was given there boosters with no reaction over the last 30 old years, but my next door neighbours dog had a real bad reaction that I thought she’d picked up poison so vets was called, until she told me the dog had her booster at 10am earlier,

 

[excuseme]

We do first course of 3, starting at 9.5 weeks, then booster at 1 year, thereafter every 3 years.

 

[Hemlock]

On the advice of my vet, I have mine titre tested. Every dog has had a lifetime immunity from the initial course of core vaccines. It's my decision that they don't get non-core lepto or kennel cough vaccines as there are fors and againsts for those rather than a definite protocol. I realise it's not the same for every dog or every owner, and wouldn't dream of trying to get others to do the same. I've done a huge amount of research and listened to vets I respect (not just the practice I go to now).

The practice I go to refuses to use Lepto4 as well as they feel there are questions yet to be answered.

 

[Ttaylor45]

On the advice of my vet, I have mine titre tested. Every dog has had a lifetime immunity from the initial course of core vaccines. It's my decision that they don't get non-core lepto or kennel cough vaccines as there are fors and againsts for those rather than a definite protocol. I realise it's not the same for every dog or every owner, and wouldn't dream of trying to get others to do the same. I've done a huge amount of research and listened to vets I respect (not just the practice I go to now).

The practice I go to refuses to use Lepto4 as well as they feel there are questions yet to be answered.

My last toy poodle Pepe the slightly smaller one in the photo had lepto 4 in September 2016 and was never well again until we lost him in November 2018 and although I can’t prove it I am sure the vaccine caused problems with his immune system. He had a problem with his white blood cells to start with and was given antibiotics for several weeks followed by severe anaemia treated for 10 months with steroids which I am sure damaged his kidneys finally very fast growing cataracts and glaucoma in both eyes which cost him his sight. We lost him to kidney disease in the end aged only 12 and 4 months. I now have another toy poodle aged 19 weeks and he has received lepto 2 but am unsure what to do in the future.

 

[Finsky]

You have given me some food for thought now and I had quite a discussion with OH about these matters. I don't usually bother him too much about dog health stuff but just let him know what is happening and if he shows interest, I educate about him about my reasonings to get 'approval stamp' from him so we are on it 'together'
When the call from vets come for the injections again for our older one...I might have her tested at first and take I take it from there...
As for the youngster, she will get to have her first booster and it will give me another year to decide the next step.
Thank you...you lot helped to clear my mind....at least for now..

 

[Finsky]

My last toy poodle Pepe the slightly smaller one in the photo had lepto 4 in September 2016 and was never well again until we lost him in November 2018 and although I can’t prove it I am sure the vaccine caused problems with his immune system. He had a problem with his white blood cells to start with and was given antibiotics for several weeks followed by severe anaemia treated for 10 months with steroids which I am sure damaged his kidneys finally very fast growing cataracts and glaucoma in both eyes which cost him his sight. We lost him to kidney disease in the end aged only 12 and 4 months. I now have another toy poodle aged 19 weeks and he has received lepto 2 but am unsure what to do in the future.

Oh I am sorry to hear of your little one's struggles and loss. Did he show any immediate reaction for the injection at all?
People and animals alike do react to the vaccines indeed and I suspect it happens more than it is reported. I know that my dog's reaction never got reported further as at the time the thought didn't even enter my mind. It should have been done by me and I assumed that vets do these things automatically (silly me) .. they didn't even suggest that I could/should report it. Which I have taken as 'don't rock the boat' response from them.

 

[Hemlock]

Ttaylor, I am so sorry you had this awful experience.

 

[Ttaylor45]

Oh I am sorry to hear of your little one's struggles and loss. Did he show any immediate reaction for the injection at all?
People and animals alike do react to the vaccines indeed and I suspect it happens more than it is reported. I know that my dog's reaction never got reported further as at the time the thought didn't even enter my mind. It should have been done by me and I assumed that vets do these things automatically (silly me) .. they didn't even suggest that I could/should report it. Which I have taken as 'don't rock the boat' response from them.

He didn’t show a reaction at the time of the injection but the white blood cell problem happened a week or two after. I realised something wasn’t quite right when he lost his appetite which was very unusual for him so I took him to the vets and requested a blood test which showed the white blood cells were multiplying very quickly which was very abnormal. When he had the anaemia his gums were almost white and his red blood count was down to 7 point something whereas it should have been around 12, he was also licking mud when we were out. My vet treated with steroids for a few weeks but the cell count wasn’t increasing as quickly as it should so he was referred to a specialist vet in internal medicine where he had various tests Including ultrasound and an overnight stay As she suspected IMHA but couldn’t prove it as he had been on steroids and they masked the symptoms. He also went to a specialist eye vet for his eye problems but because he had glaucoma they couldn’t remove the cataracts we just had to make fairly regular trips to have the pressure checked so she could adjust the eye drops accordingly. This was Optivet in Havant an 85 mile round trip for us but they were excellent and we would have done anything to keep our darling Pepe comfortable and happy. Before he had the Lepto 4 jab he had always had lepto 2 with no problems. Rusty our other toy poodle in the photo had the lepto 4 jab in January 2016 but didn’t have the same problems as Pepe. We lost Rusty aged 13 and a half 6 months before Pepe with a growth near his liver but I don’t think that would have been linked to the vaccination as dogs can get growths I suppose when they are elderly.

 

[Ttaylor45]

I did by the way fill in a form on line to Defra explaining about Pepe but have heard nothing back.

 

[lurcherman]

So how many are small dog compared to medium to big? So toy poodle and my next doors dog that had a reaction was a small Yorkie, not saying there’s a link but you never know, like I said mine was 14 and 16 without a problem.

 

[Biker John]

Lurcherman, I wonder if you could be on to something. I do not know if Vets adjust how much vaccine they give depending on the size of the dog, but to my simple mind it would make sense.

 

[JudyN]

I think with some vaccines, the same dose is safe for all - its purpose is simply to trigger the immune system so it's more like a switch. Possibly it's the immune response that causes bad reactions rather than the ingredients of the vaccine itself.

Though I have read that in some vaccines, dose does depend on the dog's size... so that doesn't tell the whole story.

 

[Finsky]

I think with some vaccines, the same dose is safe for all - its purpose is simply to trigger the immune system so it's more like a switch. Possibly it's the immune response that causes bad reactions rather than the ingredients of the vaccine itself.

Though I have read that in some vaccines, dose does depend on the dog's size... so that doesn't tell the whole story.

Now I don't know about dog vaccines but what I've read about human vaccines, it is the preservatives and such that is what we humans might react to rather then the (dead)virus in them itself. Some of the preservatives in the mix are poisonous in their own rights but because their are use in very small quantities, most of 'us' do not react to them. Those unfortunate who do..in some cases they have shown that their immune system have taken lowered/compromised, thus being able to take a hit from the very same thing in circulation that they are supposed to be protected against. Of course that is only very simplified example explanation and there is varied responses to vaccines and reason for it. I would suspect it will be something similar with animal vaccines too.
Not only are we exposed to varying minute quantities of many chemicals, metals etc that enter into our and our animals bodies....how much does it take to have that little bit too much for get adverse reaction from accumulation of them all or just specific one??