Toleit routine

[Shaun Haynes]

Hello after some advise.  Picked my puppy up in Saturday.  He is a very nervous handshy but clingy   little boy and  isn't great at settling at night when he is down stairs ( but i can see s few forums on this already) but my question is. Since returning on Saturday. At about 12:30  (lunchtime) to a family members house  he had 2 toleit break.( one of each)  However since then  he had only had one  small wee yesterday and  a number 2 on the Saturday night..is that normal or might be be as he still settling in ?  We take him out  to the garden a few  times after meals and naps. 

 

[JoanneF]

So he has only wee'ed and pooed once since Saturday?  I'd say that's not normal, I'd be concerned.

 

[Kate75]

I would definitely be concerned especially if there is no wee.  Holly didn't poo for about 36 hours after we brought her home but she was weeing every couple of hours.  Could he be going somewhere out of sight?  My friend thought her Jack Russell pup wasn't weeing and then found he was going repeatedly under her bed!

 

[Shaun Haynes]

 Update. My other half found a poo from yesterday. And  he has had a wee already today   so it not as bad as I thought 

 

[leashedForLife]

If he had *literally* only voided as often / as much as U've found traces of, he'd be extremely sick & at the vet's already.

Voiding urine expels a whole lotta toxins from the body; retain the toxins IN the body, specifically in the bloodstream, & a cascade of bad things begins: organ failure, the brain can't process info, the body can't absorb nutrients, the heart stutters, etc.
If the kidneys are still filtering the blood, & the bladder is accumulating urine, & for some reason it CANNOT be voided, then the bladder will eventually rupture - but in the intervening period while it's inflating like a water-balloon, the person suffers agonies.  [This BTW was a preferred form of torture among native tribes in the Antarctic - a simple little string tied around the prisoner's penis would back up the urine flow, & cause unGodly pain.  The parents of any male child had a work-around - slit the underside of the penis in infancy, so that the small injury will form a healed opening that cannot be tied shut; it will dribble urine thru the slit, no matter how the captors try to close it off.]

Obviously, this pup is voiding somewhere & sometime when U are not watching him.  There will be stains & stinks, later.   :x

Two suggestions:
 - from now on, he is WITH an adult human while in the house, at all times... on a waist-leash, which is hands-free. Where the human goes, he goes.
[This will also help his timidity; constant exposure & quiet presence, no handling, just be there. Randomly drop bits of his meals, measured ahead & doled out.]
 - GET A CRATE, an airline-approved shipping kennel is better than a wire "show" crate, & USE IT for those times he cannot be supervised - such as when U sleep.

Umbilical-leashes AKA a waist-leash is terrific for any number of reasons - he learns to move with U when U move, he learns to rest & relax when U sit down, he can watch U from a safe distance & get used to being around ppl without pressure. // Slip the wrist-loop of any 6-ft leash over a belt; put it on whichever side U prefer, so U don't trip over the dog. Buckle the belt. Now he has no more than 6-ft of leash, & U can walk without dragging him about, both hands free for housework, meal prep, reading, yard work, ______ .

Assuming he's a reasonable size / height, U can skip the belt & put the 6-ft leash AROUND U, then slip the spring clip thru the wrist-loop, & clip the hanging end to the dog's buckle collar. // No choke chain, no infinite-slip nylon tube collar, no prong collar, please. An ordinary buckle AKA tag-collar, or a limited-slip martingale adjusted to FIT his neck smoothly, with no slack in the slip-ring - as high on his neck as possible, lying flat & smooth.
Don't jerk the leash - use smooth gentle traction, while NOT looking at him, to bring him along. Looking at him while pulling him toward U is actually threatening - imagine if U were him, on a leash, being pulled helplessly toward a huge person U are terrified of... while they STARE at U, getting closer, looming over U! - Terrifying.     Look where U intend to go, instead, & gently draw him along; stand up, look where U intend to go, pat yer leg invitingly, move off confidently, & 99 times of 100, the dog follows along.

3rd suggestion:
TAKE HIM OUT to potty every 2-hours, as long as U are at home; last thing B4 leaving the house, a final potty trip, then CONFINE him to the crate. No absorbent bedding, bare floor, please. COME BACK within 4-hours, & if U cannot, have Someone Else come by to take him out. // Don't ask him to hold his pee or poop for 6-hours or more, in these early days - hire a pro sitter, enlist Mom or a neighbor, hire the teenager who loves dogs & lives the next street over.

4th suggestion:
KEEP A LOG, a simple one-page sheet with columns: Time he went out, initials of who took him, check 'liquid' or 'solid', & how much / any comments.
E-g, "10:15-am, Mum, pee [check], 6 to 8-oz, normal" ... "12:15-pm, Dad, poop [check], 8 to 10-oz, slightly soft".
POST IT on the doorway going out, on the 'frig, somewhere obvious & accessible; now, everyone in the house can see When he went last, What he produced [blank if nothing], & Whether it was normal / bloody / bits of chewed plastic in the poo, etc.

Specific to his shy nature, buy & use pump-spray Adaptil - it's a mimic of the pheromone nursing bitches produce, it's a calmative. Lasts 90-mins to 2-hours, can be refreshed ad lib. No interactions, no overdose, no habituation.

Let us know how he gets on, please.
 - terry

Terry Pride, CVA, member Truly Dog-Friendly

 

[leashedForLife]

to find when & where he's been going, ASAP - before damage is done:
buy a battery-operated or plug-in blacklight; after dark, shut off the lights, room by room, & take it all thru the house, using extension cords as needed.  E-T-A: under beds, behind sofa, under tables, under & behind bureaus, etc, etc.  // Biological traces will fluoresce under the UV; pick up all poops with gloved hands or paper-towels, have an enzyme-activated pump-spray cleaner JUST FOR pet waste, vomit, etc, & spray as directed.
SOme tell U wait X period, or till it dries, & vacuum; some say spray, leave it for 30-mins, re-spray; some say spray to saturate the carpet padding, TREAD on a towel to squeeze out excess, let the rest work, re-apply as needed... DO as directed. // It can take weeks for enzymes to "eat" the waste & get rid of the smell - meanwhile keep the dog away from every spot where he voided when he's off-leash, or he'll go there again - the odor is a flag, reading, "Void here".

Some good name-brands for enzyme cleaners: Planet Urine, Pee-Be-Gone, & similar. Don't use AMMONIA, it's a component of urine, & don't use CHLORINE BLEACH - it's dangerous, & does nothing useful.  Non-toxic enzyme cleaners are safe & effective. 
Hang in there, & keep re-applying it, following directions each time.
 - terry

 

[JoanneF]

Wow Terry, if you are so sure the puppy has been eliminating (Obviously, this pup is voiding somewhere & sometime when U are not watching him) do we really need the gory details of Antarctic torture methods?

 

[gypsysmum2]

So. all's well then?

You probably know how to house train but just in case -

Take him out after eating, after sleeping, after playing and any time he looks distracted. Wait around and be boring until he goes. Give him a high value treat and be very, very happy! Do not wait until he approaches you for the treat as he may get confused and think that he got it for coming to you.

Ignore any house soiling as it just an accident. If we get grumpy about it you can end up with a dog that avoids humans when they need to toilet in case the human gets grumpy. They end up waiting until we have gone out/gone to bed or will do it behind the sofa or upstairs. Just be very neutral when you find a toilet accident. A cheap cleaner is a 10% solution of biological detergent. Wash, rinse, dry and agitate some sort of spirit like white vinegar into the area to pick up the last fatty deposits present in urine.

You will know your training is working when he starts to look for you when he needs to toilet. He wants you to go outside with him as that is where the happy person and treats are!!

 

[gypsysmum2]

Also, Leashed for Life, this is a sensitive puppy. I don't think it needs tying to someone's waist!

 

[leashedForLife]

Also, Leashed for Life, this is a sensitive puppy. I don't think it needs tying to someone's waist!

with respect, Gypsy'sMum2 -
the many feral & semi-feral dogs & pups that came into shelters & rescues i volunteered with, were commonly put on an umbilical.
Either their fosters - who provided homes for them while they waited for adoption - or the staff, or myself & other volunteer dog-walkers & dog-trainers, "wore" them. It was the safest & least-stressful way of letting them learn that humans weren't dangerous, & in fact, hanging out with them paid benefits.

I did say that i know the pup is shy - & that is precisely why i suggested a waist-leash. By simply being there, within feet of the dog, WITHOUT doing scary things, just pottering about, U make Ur own presence the new-normal. // If U think the pup needs a break, take her / him out for one last potty opportunity, then crate Pup with a safe long-lasting chewy to take out their stress on. [Preferably in an airline-approved shipping crate, which provides lots of privacy & a visually-restricted environment to let the dog relax, even sleep if he wants / needs to.]

Umbilical training AKA a waist-leash prevents the pup doing what s/he would rather do, run off or slink off & hide - under or behind furniture, etc - & means that when they begin THINKING about needing to pee or poop, there's someone attached to them to notice the 1st subtle clues.  That avoids having them become 'shy eliminators' who will not void on a leash, but will sneak off in the house to void in an unoccupied room.
From the description by the OP, it sounds to me as tho this pup needs more supervision, & moreover, he's well on his way to becoming a shy eliminator: he's gone into other rooms repeatedly to empty his bladder over the past 3 days, 'cuz if he hadn't, he'd be at the vet, quite ill.

Trying to get a urine sample from a shy eliminator is not fun for anyone - the frustrated human, the dog who wonders what the H*** that eejit is doing, & the vet who needs the sample for Dx.
Changes in elimination are often the 1st sign of health issues, so a dog who is very comfy voiding on leash is much-more likely to get early Dx & thus, early treatment. The owner sees every pee & every BM, & knows very well what's normal, what's a little gastric distress from the chicken-skin a visitor slipped to the dog, & what's not right.

Take it all 'round, getting that pup very accustomed to voiding on leash, AND getting rewarded for every ounce he produces outside!, is a great way to help insure his future health, as well as make it much-easier to toilet him in novel surroundings, or on alien substrate [macadam / asphalt, concrete, pea gravel, sand, cobble, wet long grass, etc].

If he's not on leash for every potty trip, U are not close-enuf to reward him on the spot - before he takes a step.  
- terry


 

 

[leashedForLife]

... do we really need the gory details of Antarctic torture methods?

What 'gore', JoAnne?   :blink:   Gore is blood - there's no bloodshed in my post.  I was pointing out that any inability to void urine is, A, painful, & B, fatal if not treated.

for an alternative explanation, with no humans & no willful torture...
Has anyone seen a male cat who's unable to urinate?  --- even folks with no previous feline experience can generally recognize that he's in pain. [Early on, they may not realize just how sick he is becoming, that takes a bit longer to be visible - but a mere 2-hours unable to pee will prompt the most-stoic cat to cry pathetically.]

That's still torture, but no one is inflicting it, per se - it's due to anatomy, the extremely-narrow urethra in male cats, which is liable to blockage.  Urinary crystals, swelling from irritation, UTIs, stones, etc.
 - terry

 

[gypsysmum2]

Pups and indeed, all dogs, need to run off and hide if their emotional state demands it. Tying them to anything takes away the flight element of the their fight/flight response. They feel trapped and how awful is that. We ask an awful lot of our dogs to expect them to live within the curtilage of our house and garden when they would far rather be out in the wide world where the "flight" option is always available when they become anxious.

In order to learn, the limbic system needs to be in a state of "resting contentment". How is that going to be achieved when a puppy or dog cannot fulfil its most basic of needs i.e. to flee from perceived danger.

I remember a local farmer, about 30 years ago, tying his collie dog to his waist. It was done as a punishment and to teach the dog who was "boss". It only served to increase the dogs anxieties even further and did nothing to address its unwanted behaviour. That of trying to escape from an abusive owner.

 

[JoanneF]

What 'gore', JoAnne?   :blink:   Gore is blood - there's no bloodshed in my post.  I was pointing out that any inability to void urine is, A, painful, & B, fatal if not treated.

for an alternative explanation, with no humans & no willful torture...
Has anyone seen a male cat who's unable to urinate?  --- even folks with no previous feline experience can generally recognize that he's in pain. [Early on, they may not realize just how sick he is becoming, that takes a bit longer to be visible - but a mere 2-hours unable to pee will prompt the most-stoic cat to cry pathetically.]

That's still torture, but no one is inflicting it, per se - it's due to anatomy, the extremely-narrow urethra in male cats, which is liable to blockage.  Urinary crystals, swelling from irritation, UTIs, stones, etc.
 - terry

Ok, the 'gory details' is just an expression, perhaps not in the US as much as here. But my point stands, if you believe the puppy has toileted (as you said you did) there is no need to take the thread off at an irrelevant tangent. Which, ironically, I now appear to be contributing to too.

 

[Shaun Haynes]

 Thanks everyone some more helpful then others.....  bit to much detail though leashed  for life  and yeah I've had a few family pups at home gypsymum j just never had a pup like this before. 

 I've found the spot a spot in the garden flower bed where he went for a poop yesterday.  makes sense he will hide away being so nervous. ( ive found He was party housed trained by the recuse foster family he was with  before me)  So he has probably been going in there. As we alway leave the back door open for him and wanders in and out during the day.  It does only seem to be  pooping once a day.  But there not small   He is getting more comfortable around us now and is eating more and drinking playing more aswell.  So I think it was a case of being  me paranoid. But he going  to the vet tommrow just to check checked over and I'm gonna check any concern with them aswell. 

 

[gypsysmum2]

Just a word to the wise. It is best to close the door so that the dog learns to "ask" for the door to be opened. They can become confused as the where the indoor and outdoor begins and ends. Summer pups often end up not being fully house trained because of this.

 

[JoanneF]

Glad to hear this Shaun and sorry your thread got derailed. Just one thing; leaving the door open so the dog has free access to the garden can be counterproductive to house training as the dog doesn't learn to wait. But it's early days; at the moment he is learning to settle so that can come later.

 

[JoanneF]

Sorry Gypsysmum, crossposted!

 

[gypsysmum2]

Great minds and all that Joanne!

 

[Shaun Haynes]

Just a word to the wise. It is best to close the door so that the dog learns to "ask" for the door to be opened. They can become confused as the where the indoor and outdoor begins and ends. Summer pups often end up not being fully house trained because of this.

Glad to hear this Shaun and sorry your thread got derailed. Just one thing; leaving the door open so the dog has free access to the garden can be counterproductive to house training as the dog doesn't learn to wait. But it's early days; at the moment he is learning to settle so that can come later.

Never thought of it like that thought of of it  if he caught short it easy for him o get out.  But progress is progress training will be a slow process. I think. 

 

[leashedForLife]

Pups and indeed, all dogs, need to run off and hide if their emotional state demands it. Tying them to anything takes away the flight element of the their fight/ flight response. They feel trapped and how awful is that. We ask an awful lot of our dogs to expect them to live within the curtilage of our house and garden when they would far rather be out in the wide world where the "flight" option is always available when they become anxious.

In order to learn, the limbic system needs to be in a state of "resting contentment". How is that going to be achieved when a puppy or dog cannot fulfil its most basic of needs i.e. to flee from perceived danger.
...

When U are working with a very-shy dog or pup whose SOLE DESIRE is to avoid all human contact, U will not make much progress - if any - by giving the k9 free choice, as to when or if they ever spend a second within arm's reach of any human being.
If all they want to do is flee & hide, they will never learn that humans are not scary - because they'll spend the rest of their lives under & behind furniture, flinching at sounds, running off when they see the leash instead of "wanting" to go for a walk, etc.

By using a hands-free leash, the dog is within Ur general vicinity but not being 'handled'; s/he can observe, without being physically touched or manipulated directly by hands. // When the dog needs to toilet, U are right there - U know they gotta go, virtually as soon as they do. No more nasty surprises when U walk into a empty room, & find a puddle of pee or a pile of poop.  When they gotta go, they go OUT - immediately, & are promptly rewarded, on the spot, for voiding IN THE CORRECT PLACE: outside the house.
There's no confusion on the dog's part - they void, food is delivered. Very clear connection, as it happens every time they void outside. Daytime, evening, overnight... same-same.

...

I remember a local farmer, about 30 years ago, tied his collie... to his waist... as a punishment and to teach the dog who was "boss".
It only served to increase the dogs anxieties even further and did nothing to address its unwanted behaviour...  trying to escape from an abusive owner.

 Well, guess what?
We're not punishing the dog, nor are we ABUSIVE. We're not angry, yelling, threatening, or striking the dog. We're just there.

EVEN IF the dog does something wrong, Ex, poops under the desk WHILE WE ARE LEASHED TO the dog, that is the human's fault, not the dog's, & if anyone gets 'punished', it should be the human who was so engrossed in watching the latest cute-cat-video to go viral that s/he totally forgot about the dog on the waist-leash.  :b   Oops.

The dog does NOT get scolded - even mildly.  No angry or impatient body-language. No stomping when U walk.
No staring - use glances aside, not direct eye-to-eye gaze. Smile , including one's eyes, with a soft gaze, & lips covering teeth.

U can do exactly as U like; nobody's forcing anyone.
I make suggestions based on over 40-years of working as a trainer with clients' dogs, taking seminars & workshops & teleconferences, & working as a hands-on volunteer under good mentors in many shelters & rescues, starting in my early-20s. // Everybody can re-invent the wheel for themselves, or they can use safe, humane, well-proven methods.
It's a choice.
cheers,
- terry