To neuter or not to neuter?

[Flobo]

One of my soap box issues with dogs, is neutering, I think it is hugely important when we live in environments where there are very large dog populations (nevermind the overflowing rescue centres), sharing walking spaces. In my experience a neutered dog will have better recall and be less distracted or driven by their hormones and generally be more balanced with socializing, aswell as preventing potential health issues . I do walk neutered and unneutered dogs, for example, one of my entire males has only 2 things on his mind either humping (n-male or female,tis all fair game to him!)or he wants to offer out all the other entire males in the park or they him, also I find there are some n-males that will always have a go at him. I let him off in a fenced off area to play ball and have worked really hard with his recall to the point that if another dog enters the area he will not run over to it unless I say 'go on then'(if I know who the dog is),brilliant, but in the main park, not a hope in hell!!!
I am interested in what other people think on this subject and if you don't agree with neutering I am genuinely interested in reasons why.(Other than for breeding obviously!)

 

[Josie]

I don’t understand why you wouldn’t get your dog neutered unless you were going to stud them.

I would also be interested to know if male owners find it harder to get their dog neutered because it’s well.... a bit of a sensitive area.....maybe? Or am I chatting rubbish? (Careful in answers please!)

 

[mdkel]

I don’t understand why you wouldn’t get your dog neutered unless you were going to stud them.

I would also be interested to know if male owners find it harder to get their dog neutered because it’s well.... a bit of a sensitive area.....maybe? Or am I chatting rubbish? (Careful in answers please!)

Zappa's neutered... I am a male owner ... I understand wat you say but at least to me it's ok, not really a big deal. I've read somwhere that dogs don't have a male/female understanding of themselves like we do. And I don't see zappa any different if he was not neutered, I feel the same about him. What if a dog is not neutered and is gay?? haha

as for better recall, less distacted, not humping, etc. that's just a myth, Zappa has humped after being neutered, and I know a lot of neutered male dogs that have a bad recall, that are easily distracted and that are super humpers... A dog's behaviour comes more from theire (?) own personality and trainning (education, environment, etc)... being neutered does not seem too affect a dog that much, I think...

 

[Violet Turner]

Personally I would say not to neuter but everyone has different opinions, there are pro's and con's to both but I think the pro's win over con's on not neutering.

 

[leashedForLife]

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yes, @Josie - what U suspect is true --- not of all male owners, but certainly of more M-owners re their M dogs, than of F-owners re their F dogs, definitely.

IME of more than 40-yrs, some? // many? male-owners get very defensive when anyone talks about neutering ThEIR dog - when the discussion centers around the dog stealing a hunk of meat off the prep-counter, he's the wife's probl... errm, dog ; when the discussion is about the dog humping the kid or a young visitor, he's the kid's dog, & it's the kid's fault for "getting him all excited".
But when the discussion turns to desex, suddenly he's Daddy's dog, & he's NOT getting the family jewels snatched by some money-grubbing vet... [mutter, mutter, mutter...] "Whatsamatta with these guys, ain't they got enuf to do, gettin' hairballs out of some old lady's cat, & sellin' flea-killer that's probly just dish-soap!?! -- they're not gettin' MY dog... if they think they are, they got another think comin'!..."

It's strange, wimmen generally don't get weirded-out by the prospect of spaying their F pup; they worry on the day, but that's about GA complications or other legit concerns, not "being neutered" itself. // Many men get very anxious even at the possibility of neutering young Jack, despite the fact that Jack is being a royal pain, & he's no gorgeous specimen of doghood, anyway. Certainly he's not a high-dollar future stud, at least.

I'm going to tell a story from my freshman college livestock-production course that might illustrate the visceral reactions U get from men - & guys, feel free to stop reading if it starts to upset U. [I'm serious - i don't want anyone to read it, in part or in toto, & then tell me AFTERWARD that they're traumatized, OK? - it's not graphic, but if U have a fertile imagination & let it gallop off with U, i'm not taking the blame. We're grown-ups, & can decide for ourselves what's OK & what's too much info.]

All right - it's early spring, & we're having a lab in sheep-production at Penn State; my somewhat-crusty 60-something professor is lecturing & demonstrating, as is his wont, during the 1st half of our "lab". // This means we're all forced to try to jam 3-hrs of work into 90-mins, after he stops talking - but this is the daily reality of pre-vet. :shrug: They want U to choose another major, any other major - so they load this one with info as if yer brain was a grain-hopper of infinite capacity, & they're dumping grain into it by the railroad-carload.
Today, he talks about [among many other things] castrating M lambs, as approx half the lambs born are M, & U only want the prize specimens for breeding; the rest are cut, so they don't harass the ewes, breed their dams, or waste time & energy fighting one another - which they will, starting around 4 to 5-mos age.

I notice that as soon as he mentions the word "castrate", at least half the guys in the room cross their legs - we're sitting in old-fashioned cast iron seats, steam-bent oak backs & bums, with swing-up armrests for writing, & the rows of chairs are bolted into stair-step type concrete risers, to give an unobstructed view to each student. So the clatter & chirp of boot-soles on concrete, as all these guys cross their legs, is far from subtle.
His assistant, a grad-student in microbiology, fetches over a young ram lamb, maybe 6 or 8-wks old; when he's directed to do so, the Asst holds the lamb's spine vertically against his chest, clamping a foreleg like a handle in each hand & folding his fists against the lamb's chest - the lamb's hind legs hang free. The lamb is securely held, & he fusses more about being restrained than he does about being cut, as the Prof has already slit each side of the scrotum, & the lamb didn't even notice. He's blatting at the Asst to let go, & unaware of the intrusion of a scalpel in his nether region - he never flexes either hind-leg, but they dangle relaxed.
The Prof explains that he prefers to do this the old-fashioned way, & pops out each testis, carefully stripping back the ligaments & vessels with a thumbnail, then BITING the cord & crushing the vessel with his teeth.
Three men, all football players over 200# apiece, faint with a series of thuds - the rest of the guys look very pale, & a few are sweating. // The lamb, meanwhile, wriggles impatiently to get down, & when he's set on his hooves, races off to his mum, apparently none the worse for wear, & starts to nurse.

[this wasn't to be the last time i saw what even a tiny amount of blood did to some men - there were literally 3 to 5 drops of blood shed in the entire operation, i've seen nosebleeds that were far-more gory; but the next time was indeed much messier.
The Prof stuck & drained a 1400# steer, who'd been rendered unconscious with an accurately-placed stun gun, & was hanging by his hind legs from chains; the same 3 men hit the floor, accompanied by 2 others.]

_______________ END OF STORY ____________


I've had any number of male clients get very squeamish at the suggestion that their M dog might be easier to deal with, & even more, that his dog would probly be happier, if he was desexed - vs incessantly pestering, mounting, & humping everything from the hassock in the TV-room to the legs of visitors.
Dogs don't fantasize; they won't yearn over their lost testes, any more than F dogs get clinically depressed 'cuz they've been spayed & will never be mothers. // Guys take it far-too personally - we're not talking about emasculating them, but about preventing unwanted litters & reducing unwanted sexual behavior in their dogs --- leg-lifting, escaping to roam, posturing at other M dogs, & wasting endless hours sniffing pee on vertical surfaces.

It's a difficult subject for some men - the same guys who brag about their latest sexual conquest in lurid detail, can't say the word "neuter" without blushing. ???? - i dunno. Folk are queer, & no mistake.

- terry

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[Mad Murphy]

All of my male dogs have been neutered (although round here we just say castrated no pet names such as ' being done', 'de-sexed' etc the Dutch are quite sober about such things).

In two cases this had to be done because of an undescended testicle. In the other two , I had a beagle who suddenly entered full raging hormone stage and he looked like Mr universe full of bulging muscle and would attack anything in his personal space. After the castration his body shade softened slightly although even when he died at 15 we had people at the crematorium admire him because he was in such great shape. His behaviour calmed a lot, he was never a 'cuddle me' type dog ( bad past history) but he stopped attacking other dogs and male humans and was a lot easier to live with.

Oscar a border collie was slow to mature and I started to think he would be a softie all his life when suddenly the hormones kicked in and he started the same ott male behaviour, snapping and trying to ward off other male dogs ( some he had known since thier puppy time) he also did the big bog off after the ladies and went across a main road, which was the day I phoned the vet.

Murphy is now also castrated. Its only been 9 days but Im hoping that a lot of the recent awful behaviour we have seen from him will slow or stop and his training will kick in again.

In every case my delay in having my dogs castrated has been down to the male ego of my husband who somehow saw this as an assult on his own manhood. Telling him that it was for the dogs own good and all the benefits both behavioural and health wise had no effect, he saw it as a painful and almost shameful thing to do.. I jokingly get the 'blame' for 'cutting thier nuts off' and I dont think he is alone, far too many men see this as a personal attack rather than what it really is.

I did not intend to breed from any of my dogs, I did not want the macho male behaviour that entire males show , I didnt want any of the health risks being left entire can bring so I made a choice. I did what I thought was best for them and they all lived good lives and so far each has died from a cause totally removed from anything to do with the operation or the male reproductive organs.

 

[Mad Murphy]

Personally I would say not to neuter but everyone has different opinions, there are pro's and con's to both but I think the pro's win over con's on not neutering.

Could you elaborate? What pros are there to leaving a dog entire?

 

[PWDmum]

Could you elaborate? What pros are there to leaving a dog entire?

The pros for leaving a dog intact are and especially for young dogs that have not finished growing, are allowing those essential hormones to do the job they are designed for, whe you castrate a dog you take away those that help in development of structure and mental stability. Testosterone is not just a sexual hormone, it also plays a vital,part in developing a stable temperament. Dogs that have been castrated early ( pups) are susceptible to over growth, and in some breeeds can be associated with osteosarcoma , as already been stated it can also make a early castrated dog thbut of entire dogs due to the immature state they remain in.

I am not against castration, but I don’t support the following that all male dogs should be castrated as a matter of course , nor do I buy into entact male dogs are the source of all the unwanted dogs in shelters, I know many many people who own entire dogs and have never had a problem with the dogs want8ng to service every bitch they see, it’s about being a responsible owner, yes some entire dogs can be stroppy and testosterone fuelled idiots at times, my own included, but it’s all down to training, and they usually grow out of it as they mature, a young teenager intact dog will have up to 3/4 times more testosterone flowing round their system than mature dogs .

The only health benefit of a castrated dog is testicular cancer, it can still get prostate problems and cancer.

The benefit of castration ( after the dog has matured) can be reducing the matcho man attitude in some dogs, unfortunately a lot of owners who go down the route of castrating their dogs do so thinking it is going to solve all behavioral issues, it doesn’t in some cases it can make it worse.

If you decide to have your male castrated please do your reseach first and don’t be pressurised by vets or those who tell you you should do it , do your reseach allow your pup to finish his growth and see how his temperament is set, then make your own decision .

 

[arealhuman]

as for better recall, less distacted, not humping, etc. that's just a myth

Same here, apart from the humping.

 

[poptart]

I don't like the idea of putting an animal through invasive surgery without a good reason. If you have an aggressive or sex mad dog who humps everything and everyone then fair enough, but I've never had that problem.

 

[doggie1]

One of my soap box issues with dogs, is neutering, I think it is hugely important when we live in environments where there are very large dog populations (nevermind the overflowing rescue centres), sharing walking spaces. In my experience a neutered dog will have better recall and be less distracted or driven by their hormones and generally be more balanced with socializing, aswell as preventing potential health issues . I do walk neutered and unneutered dogs, for example, one of my entire males has only 2 things on his mind either humping (n-male or female,tis all fair game to him!)or he wants to offer out all the other entire males in the park or they him, also I find there are some n-males that will always have a go at him. I let him off in a fenced off area to play ball and have worked really hard with his recall to the point that if another dog enters the area he will not run over to it unless I say 'go on then'(if I know who the dog is),brilliant, but in the main park, not a hope in hell!!!
I am interested in what other people think on this subject and if you don't agree with neutering I am genuinely interested in reasons why.(Other than for breeding obviously!)

Could you have a word with Eddi and tell him that please, I don't think he read the script properly!

 

[JudyN]

If it ain't broke don't fix it

 

[Mad Murphy]

I agree with some of the points made . In general I wouldnt castrate a pup until fully grown, Murphy will be 2 in July. My other dogs were all done after they had reached maturity. My (now deceased )vet always spoke of hormonal behaviour and learned behaviour and made it clear that castration was no cure for the latter nor for breed traits.
Ive never felt pressured by a vet in fact my now vet never even mentioned it I made the call on Murphy.

However I can understand why most rescues push for it. Many posters have mentioned responsible owners and thats the point. While there are many well meaning and loving owners there are sadly far too many who do not realise how far their responsibilty reaches. A friend adopted 2 staffs from rescue because as she said 'these dogs are so misunderstood and there are so many in rescue' ( I agreed) Two years on she is having a litter with her dogs because 'dog A is so cute and I know he will make a good dad' .. Ive tried to explain nicely that its not about if A will be a good dad or if hes cute. Its all about why she adopted him in the first place ie; because he was from a litter who were dumped when the owner couldnt find homes for them. She didnt seem to realise that his pups could end up in rescue or the fact that for every new pup like hers a rescue dog is left in kennels.
So I can understand why rescues are saying dogs have to be de-sexed before being adopted , its the only way they can have any say in the population control issue because owners just are not facing up to it and rescues are drowning in unwanted dogs.

As for vets, did you know they have one of the highest suicide rate per profession? Im not surprised when their day is filled with people who want a dog put down because its been fighting or a mis-mate jab because they forgot the dog was in season or god forbid they want rid of the pups because they weren't planned. All because someone couldnt be bothered to take precautions to control their dog and its sex drive.

Yes if you have a stud dog or breeding bitch, ok if you are truely a dedicated owner who never makes a mistake and whos dog is a perfect angel (by the way none of mine ever humped, before or after)keep your animal intact but, if we are talking about the average owner who thinks fluffy is smiling when he rolls his lips and that fluffy is cute when he humps other dogs then no for the dog for the future pups (or prevention of) and for the world at large they need to have their dog de-sexed.

 

[Caro Perry]

Jury still out here. My vet is not in favour of early castration so it's a discussion that has been shelved for now. My male dogs in the past were done. One improved behaviour, one no change.

At the moment I'm inclined to delay indefinitely unless I can see any clear advantage for him. I doubt we'll want to breed from him although genetically it wouldn't be a bad thing - he has a much lower than average CofI than most of his breed.

 

[leashedForLife]

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If U think that U *might* at some future date, want a litter sired by a particular dog, U can always keep the sperm & lose the testes - even if the dog has not yet been screened for heritable problems, the screening can be done later, & the sperm harvested today.
A.I. is very safe & highly successful, altho it's not as popular, well-researched, or common in dogs as in dairy cows, where it's practically universal - so dog-breeding with A.I. isn't as polished in details as cattle A.I.

One of my fellow 4-H kids lived on a dairy farm, & her parents kindly invited us to spend a day & practice fitting a calf for the show-ring; they were one of the VERY few, even then, who still kept a bull on the premises, a monster Holstein-Fresian who lived alone in a small house attached to a concrete-floored, pipe-fenced paddock. He was a bad actor, & it took 5 men to move him anytime he left his pen, 2 with poles spring-clipped to his nose-ring, one holding his tail to help steer or brake, & one each side of his rump.
The day we bathed, brushed, haltered, & began training our calves, i got the biggest & oldest one [we drew lots] & she wasn't co-operating with the halter & lead. She kept balking & staring at the other calves, who were all under 6-WO & toddling along with their handlers happily.
So i moved us into the pasture, thinking that might make it easier - & it did, for about 3-minutes. Then she stopped dead, & stared fixedly over my shoulder. // I turned to see the 1-ton bull coming straight down the hill at us like a locomotive with no brakes - he'd been over the hill, turned in with the cows 'cuz several were in heat.
I dropped the lead & left the calf to her own devices, & ran like H*** for the fence - it was only 10 or 12-ft away, but it seemed like a mile. I couldn't climb it, i heard him coming & threw myself at the top bar, somehow managed to somersault over it, & came down, still running, as i heard him hit the fence head-on behind me, with a crash.
[I have never in my life been able to vault a gymnastic-horse, so only the power of terror got me over that fence, let alone landing on the far side still upright, & running like a mad thing.]

Thank God, the fence rails & posts held, or i wouldn't be typing these words - i turned to see him fallen to the ground, the force of his own impact had thrown him sideways, & he lay parallel to the fence, breathing stertorously & glaring at us all.
I stepped on a pitchfork as i ran, & never felt a thing - even writing about it makes the hair stand up all over my body, it was truly terrifying. // Why no one warned us that he was out, i don't know - 5-minutes later, he was gone, off to service the cows, & my hands were still shaking with adrenaline.

That bull was very-convincing evidence for the simplicity & safety of A.I.; dairy bulls are the most dangerous thing on a farm, statistically, even more-likely to kill U than a roll-over on a tractor, or a loose belt on a PTO, or a grain-silo accident.

- terry

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[Flobo]

Could you have a word with Eddi and tell him that please, I don't think he read the script properly!

(don't think that quote button worked right then or more likely it's me that doesn't work right), but yes maybe I should have added with the exception of some dogs of course! Though I walk an Airedale bitch and a male Irish terrier that have both been much more relaxed post neutering, but it took time and work all the same. This is only my experience, most of my dogs I've walked for nearly 4 years and have known them before and after their ops and also there aren't many places to walk in or on the outskirts of where I live where you will not bump into other dogs or groups of dogs on a walk...so maybe more so in a town or city environment, than a rural environment, is it a really important issue to consider, sadly there are still a lot of dog owners who are very lacking in basic canine care and understanding. Last year I saw a young collie bitch running around our park totally beside herself presenting herself desperately to every dog she came across, I eventually picked out the owner and politely(not!) asked what the hell he was thinking and he actually said 'oh I didn't realize she was still in season, I thought it only lasted a week like a woman' he actually said that... I helped him get his dog, thankfully and amazingly, before she got got, and he left the park.

 

[Flobo]

Oo the quote button did work

 

[JudyN]

he actually said 'oh I didn't realize she was still in season, I thought it only lasted a week like a woman' he actually said that...

I'm guessing he wasn't married....