This blummin dog !

[Raven oaktree]

Ok, as most of you know i have an adolescent GDS cross, she is awesome in sooooo many ways. Her training is going well , she is great with people, and loves to play with other dogs..however tension is building between her and my very old sweet dog.

Willow has always been a dominant dog. When she was tiny my old boy tolerated her, just telling her off if she was really energetic and jumping on his head etc. Once she got to around 3/4 months he started telling her off more often..usually just a bark and chasing her off, she very quickly started answering him back and wouldnt take being told off by him, this usually resulted in lots of barking and gobbyiness, but not much else. Then we ha an incident where she attacked him when he walked pas one of her toys, so all toys were removed and she was given one at a time for training or playing when my old boy was upstairs. LATELY THOUGH SHE HAS BEEN STARTING FIGHTS!!. This morning when i let her out of her crate , grommy was still upstairs sleeping, he came down about 30 mins later and i noticed she was 'on one'..she was using her body to block him going outside, she was nibbling his ears and she put her head on top of him..i moved her out the way and tried to redirect her, get her intrested in something else..anyway about 5 mins later she was resting on the floor by the sofa, my old dog had gone to say good morning to my son in his wheelchair and she flew at him, i seperated them and put Willow in her crate so i could check grommy over. Willow is 25kg and grommy is only 14/15kg...i just dont know why this is happening. Ive over 25 years of experience with dogs, mostly rescue, ive worked in rescues and worked with fear aggressive dogs. Ive owned a huge fear aggressive anatolian shepherd and we havent had he problems we have with Willow. My old dog is a very gentle , non aggressive dog, who with very careful introductions has always got on with any rescue we have had..i just dont get it..we have had Willow from a pup, she has had lots of training, lots of socialisation and im not a new dog owner ..how has this happened?..do you think its because of her age?..i just on know what to do

 

[goldenbear2013]

Raven Oaktree you are going through it at the minute aren't you!

As she hasn't drew blood from Groomy I would say this is not aggression, this is pure dominance.

Bottom line, is that Grommy is a soft touch (this is not a bad thing btw) and she knows it. She knows that she can do whatever she wants to him and he wont retaliate. Therefore becoming the dominant one out of the two.

She is a teenager and she will not only test boundaries with you but with Grommy too. She needs to learn who is boss and this unfortunately my friend will take time and a shed load of patience! this will continue for at least another 6 months! ( :'( )

If you show her your the boss, not her, not even Grommy; then your instructions alone will stop her from going for Grommy.

You will know her well enough by now to know when her behavior changes and when she is going to try and be dominant. As soon as you see her body language change then you need to correct this however you see fit. She cannot get to that point in her mind where she feels the need to go for Grommy.

I would look to change the following things immediately (this is if you don't do this already);

* Feed them separately. Don't let either of them be in the same room as each other when the other is eating.

* Play with them separately. You play with them together it will probably make her even worse

* Walk them separately. I'm guessing you do this anyway given the age difference and Willow needs a lot more walking than Grommy?

* No sleeping in the same room. All nap times and bed times you need to keep them apart.

When you train Willow, I would say do this together. Willow needs to learn from example and clearly Grommy is an excellent example. Plus its fun for both of them! She will see Grommy doing well and getting a treat for whatever training your doing and should copy so she gets the same attention. if she acts up, then you need to remove her and spend some time with Grommy and give her a time out.

Another thing you can try (and this I have done myself so tried and tested!) is when Willow is getting too much or your correction doesn't stop her from whatever it is she shouldn't be doing, then straight to her crate for a time out. Leave her there until she is relaxed and calm then let her out. If she misbehaves again, back to the crate.

When you do this, don't talk to her, don't look at her, just get hold of her collar and lead her in to the crate. Ignore her completely. Not even a correction. Being putting in her crate alone should tell her that what she has just done is unwanted. and as you are aware no dog likes to be ignored!!

Repeat this process until she understands that only calm behavior will result in her being let back out and to join the rest of the family (including Grommy)

Now I must stress this. Don't stop putting her in her crate for time outs until she calms down. When I first did this with Bear, it took over 40 trips to his crate over the space of 1 1/2 hours before he actually got the message! Persistence is key my dear!

Sorry the message has been so long, but I'm thankful that I know something about your problem and what your going through in order to hopefully help you.

No doubt others will also respond with some good advice for you, especially Eingana as she knows GSD's better than most!

Let me know how you get on.

Sophie x

 

[Raven oaktree]

Thanks Sophie, ive been in tears most of the morning..i just dont know what ive done wrong with her . EVERYTHING you suggested im already doing...Willow needs way more exercise than Grommit so she has an hour to an hour and a half by herself in the morning and they are walked together by me and hubby in the evening, they are fed in seperate rooms..I make them both sit and wait while i prepare their food, Willow sits in the kitchen, grommy sits in the living room...willow sit waits like a good girl when i take grommys food in..i make him wait, give paw etc before i give him his food, willow sits and waits and watches all of this..i hen give willow her food, she gives paw, lies down and waits too, although i make her work a little hader for her food. Ive spoken to a behavioursit this morning who has old me the dominance theroy has been proved to be bollocks..thats all well and good but before she attacked him this morning she put her paw on his back, and put her head on top of his..she was being dominant and no scientist in the world can tell me otherwise!!

Willow gets lots of playtime seperate from her walks away from grom, we play games, hide n seek that kind of thing..grom just isnt intrested in that anymore ...i read somewhere that time seperate from each other should be boring and time together should be fun so they associate fun times with being together..that didnt work so we went back to seperate ...training together dosent work a the moment because she has developed food aggression and will attack him for treats...i KNOW she is a teenager..but she has turned into a monster overnight..i wouldnt dream of giving her up but i might consider running away

i use a crate , and i use it for time out, when she attacked him this morning i first gave the command DOWN..that usually works, but didnt and as soon as i got to them (within seconds) she was chucked into her crate where she stayed for an hour and totally ignored..she was out for about 10 mins before she went for him again..as i moved towards her she ran outside but i chucked her back in her crate and she will stay there for a while...honestly im at the end of my tether with her and i have no idea where we went wrong..she is the sweetest, cleverest dog ever, she learns quickly, she plays with other dogs beautifully, a dog walker walks her twice a week with a pack and she is fine with them..its just grommit. ..one of the things ive considered is its because he is ill..he is 16 in june, has stage 4/5 heart failure and has bowel cancer..do you think its instinct to drive a sick dog out?..all i know is i don understand how a dog that has had so much time, love and training can be like this

sorry, should just add willow sleeps in her crate in the kichen and grommy sleeps upstairs..willow dosent have the run of the house , grommy does because he is old and needs to be able to have time away from her and rest.

 

[goldenbear2013]

Oh no!

You are in a pickle aren't you!

The only thing I would say is just keep putting her in her crate every time she is naughty. She should get the message eventually that her behavior results in being stuck in her crate and not out playing and getting cuddles.

I would preserver with the crate time outs until she gets it. Like I said Bear went in his crate over 40 times under 2 hours before he calmed down and he is the only dog! This process went on for months if I'm honest before his naughty behavior finally disappeared!

You wont change her over night, you just need to keep up the crate time outs until she gets it. It could be a while........

And i'm not sure on the dog driving a sick dog out theory? maybe someone else on here might shed some light on that one!

That's the only thing I can suggest I'm afraid my dear!

Hopefully someone else has some helpful insight

And as for the behaviorist saying dominance doesn't exist , i'm with you, that is utter rubbish I'm afraid! In every pack, there is a pack leader; the one who DOMINATES the rest! it's nature for Christ sake!

Sophie x

 

[eingana]

Both GSD and border collie girls are renowned for their dominance- I've seen absolute nightmare dominant girlies working in rescue. I've removed a whole selection of them from homes where they have got to their teenager phase and then shredded other dogs in the home (often when they are about to come into season, so I put that down to PMT more often than not).

I don't envy you one bit, and I know you're already doing lots of really positive things for her so I'm not going to suggest anything new at this stage. Take a bit of time to look after yourself and get back into a good frame of mind first, then look at your management. When something goes wrong we're programmed to think that it's our fault, but it's really not, and you need to get your head into gear about this.

Yes, you'll need a strategy to stop this happening in future (if Willow is still entire and is going into season then that may well feature in the strategy!) but it doesn't have to happen again and you can continue in a modified form of lockdown mode with them separated for a day or two until you've got yourself sorted and the family OK with it all.

Sending hugs and hopes that you have Willow's triggers sorted soon

 

[Raven oaktree]

Hi guys thanks for the advice and he shoulder to cry on ...willow was spayed at 6 months..a rescue regulation..i wanted to wait for her first season so she would at least have some oestrogen in her system instead of just having testosterone ..never good for a dominant dog..but rules are rules..

Modified lock down it is then..we love her soooo much, she is hard work but we knew she would be hard work and we know you get out what you put in..we will never give up on her and are more than willing to do the work..i know in a few years time she will be a cracking dog..i just dont know what to do wih her attacking grom, i dont know why she does it and i dont know how to break they cycle..i just dont want his last months being like this ..he is he best friend anyone could wish for and he dosent deserve it . Beth xx

 

[Raven oaktree]

Also..i forgot to ask , how long should i leave her in her crate?..after the second attack this morning i left her in there a few hours to stew, but that was mainly because i was so mad with her..

 

[eingana]

I think that not making any decisions or plans when you're still really cross with her is the way forwards, and as long as she's getting exercise and you're making sure that she's got toys and loo breaks etc, being in there for longer periods is no problem at all in the short term. It won't do her any harm but it's not like she's going to work out that you're cross with her (or why).

Is there anywhere in the house that would allow Willow to be separate from Grom so that he can do his own thing and you know that she will have attention but won't be able to get to him if your back is turned? I would recommend (for the moment) mixing them only when you're able to both pay full attention to the inter-dog situation and when you've got something to keep her busy, whether that's a game, training or walking drills.

In the short term, if she's too set on getting at him in the house then I'd just walk them together and then separate them in the house. Again, while they're out on a walk, he gets to do his own thing and she gets to stay on a lead until you're happy that she's being a good girl. If you're walking at a decent pace and you're schooling her while you're walking (proper heel walking, loose lead, paying attention to you and not her surroundings) then she will be getting exposed to Grommit but will be busy following commands, watching you and watching where she's walking to react too badly to him, and that may be a way for her to be around him and not being a monster. Even if that does no good for her, it may help Grom be less terrified of her if he sees her in this carefully constructed way when she's not being a monster.

Does she react to other dogs normally, while meeting them out on a walk? If she does then I'd see if there's anybody locally who can start also parallel walking with you, ideally with exposure to lots of other dogs. Parallel walking works mostly because dogs have quite small brains and if the dogs were standing still they could have 100% of their brain power dedicated to reacting to the other dog, but if you're walking quickly they have to pay attention to what is happening on the walk and therefore they can't pay as much attention to the other dog and that means that they get to spend time near the other dog(s) until they're a familiar smell and presence but without being able to react.

Group walks are also helpful if you know of any in your local area. There's nothing quite like 50 dogs that are bigger than you, all of which are quite as capable of dominance, to show you that dominance is sometimes not the right course I know of a lot of GSD walk groups around the country which mostly meet on Sundays, if that's would be of any help to you. 50 GSDs can take a bit of confidence to be around, but they sure teach the dogs to be part of a pack rather than a prima donna. New dogs walk on lead and muzzled until you're sure that they are comfortable around the other dogs, but most dogs have the muzzle taken off on the first walk.

I can't help thinking that the food aggression and domination is going to take her getting some new rules in her life, which you can be working on with her. Rules like food, leads, toys and beds all belong to you, and whether she gets any of them is down to whether you want to give them.

Have you taught her the start of the self control and delayed gratification tricks, like give, leave, trade and wait? I know she's still young to learn these, but as a clever girl she should be able to get some of them for a few seconds and they can be the basis for play being started and finished at your control, not hers, that sort of thing.

I don't know how far down this road you have already gone, but if there's capacity for making her world more obviously controlled at your choice then I would certainly explore that. Once she gets the message that you control everything and you're both a benevolent dictator and the source of food and fun, that should help her start to toe the line a bit better, and if you can also show her that if she thinks she's top dog you'll just mix her with far better top dogs than she can hope to be, then with a bit of luck she will give up that aim too.

Oh- and keep on keeping on Good luck

 

[Raven oaktree]

Hi eingana, thankyou so much for that reply xx

Ok, i will start by saying we love this girl soooo much and im not giving up on her EVER, she is ours and she is here to stay..we will find help for any issues we cant resolve

She stayed in her crate yesterday for nearly 3 hours, she slept for most of it..i left her there because i was angry and i didnt want her picking up on my anger (i rarely get angry, especially with animals)..she wouldnt have had a clue as to why i was angry and would have just picked up on the tension...and that wouldnt have been fair to her so thats why i left her there..not to punish her or *make her think about what she had done* lol...my anger was productive though..i dug 3 veg beds over . when she came out of her crate, we took her for a walk and she had play and training time on her long lead..so all was good

Ok, training with Willow is going very very well. She was toilet trained by the time she was 9 weeks old, crying and pawing at the door..

she will sit on command, she will 'stay',' give paw', 'lie down' and 'leave'

when she wants to go out, she will go to the door and cry, we say Willow 'back', she moves away from the door, we say 'sit'..then 'wait'. when we open the door she stays sitting till we say 'good girl, go'..

Her recall in the house/garden is fab, we just shout 'Willow come' and she comes, screeching to a halt, straight into a 'sit' position..she is usually rewarded with a sliver of liver of a piece of kibble from her food allowance...not every time but if she is a little slower coming, we up the food rewards till we are back on track

Outside the home her recall is rubbish, but we are working on it very hard and she is getting better. We use her fav toy and food rewards, and we do things like hide behind tree's and in bushes..she is improving alot.

ALL of her toys are out of reach, she can only have them when we say so, they are usually used for training , rewards or playtime, then we remove them. We keep kongs in the freezer with natural yoghurt or peanut butter in to give her while she is in her crate, sometime if she is chilled and settled she likes a chew toy to munch on in front of the fire in the evening. She can be possessive over her toys , so she normally dosent have access to them when Grommit is around, even though he shows no interest in them what so ever.. I can usually tell by her body language if i can get away with it , so usually when she has her chew toy in the evening, even with Grommit there she is ok.

If Willow managed to get hold of something she isnt allowed but wont harm her (i.e a loo roll)..we get a very high value toy and say 'ohhh what have you got?' and she brings it to show us..i say 'leave' take it out her mouth, but give her it back..i then show her the high value toy, she drops the other and takes the toy and i remove the *usually * loo roll. If its something that she cant have..like a bag of rasins we say 'Willow leave' in a firm voice, she seems to know the difference in my tone and will drop it and come to me and sit, waiting for a food reward.

When we feed them, we feed them in separate rooms, Grommit is fed first in the living room, then Willow is fed in the kitchen. Willow likes to sit and watch me prepare the food, she sits in the kitchen waiting and watching while i take Grommits food, i make him sit, i put he food down and i say 'good boy..go on' and he tucks in. The whole time Willow is sitting like a good girl watching. I then go into the kitchen, close the door, i make her sit, give paw, lie down, stay..then make her wait. Ive got her wait up to nearly a minute and a half..i then say 'good girl, go on' and she eats. No food is ever left down longer than 15/20 mins, and he doors are not opened till either the dogs have finished and the bowls have been removed.

With treats its the same, they sit, they wait..I say 'Grommit, take it nicely'..and 'Willow, take it nicely'..the problem is when Grommit sniffs the floor after a treat for crumbs..Thats the trigger point for Willow, and if she is going to attack him, thats when she will do it. We have got over this by sitting the dogs opposite ends of the room and standing beside Willow so we can grab her collar and redirect her if needed..or just giving treats in different rooms.

Willow is still very young, and was hand reared, so didnt learn any doggy etiquette from mum, so we have socialised her ALOT. She goes to puppy parties, where she is fine, she plays with dogs when she is on the long line, she plays with dogs in training, and twice a week she is walked by a dog walker because of my work hours. Both times she can be walked in a 'pack' with up to 6 dogs and she is totally fine. Only once has she acted aggressively towards another dog other than Grommit. We were in he vets and someone dragged a slightly smaller dog in, who obviously was very distressed a being at the vets, the dog was being dragged and it was howling and screeching, Willow tried to attack this dog..this is the one and only time she has done this..this was about 3 months ago.

She is fab, and i feel like i did her alot of injustice yesterday because i was angry with her, and upset for my beautiful old boy...and angry with myself for introducing a puppy at this stage in his life..but as good as she has been we are noticing changes..she is challenging us alittle more, not following commands as quickly as she has done in the past..sometimes thinking about if she really wants to ..you can see it in her face thinking about it ..She has definitely hit the dreaded teenage years..which is fine, we were expecting this..and for all the posts i put about her antics driving us nuts, its mostly just me sharing her funny stories with people who also love dogs..she is hard work, but we knew she would be..at leas for the first few years...but this attacking Grommy has made me so upset...he is such an old boy at the end of his life, he has been the most amazing friend ever..he dosent deserve this, and honestly..Willow is not a nasty dog..i dont want this to became a habit for her, or for her to be kept on a muzzle for the rest of her life. I want to do the best i can for both my dogs and this means teaching Willow so she can reach her full potiential and she lives a long and happy life, being a good dog that is well socialzed...but it also means taking great care of a very much loved friend in his final days, keeping him safe and free from harm...

Im so sorry for the long post, but i you were all really helpful and i wanted you to have as much info as possible so you can tell me where im going wrong, so we can put it right...thanks once again..i love this forum you are all soooo friendly and helpful

soooo, at the moment we are doing 'crate and rotate' Grommy has access to the whole house, so when he isnt in the living room with us, he is usually lounging on a sofa or a bed else where in the house..Willow dosent have access everywhere, she only has access to the kitchen, living room and she is allowed in my sons bedroom WITH PERMISSION...Willow has been with me since 5.30 this morning, she has been walked, been fed and played with..she is now sleeping in her crate and Grommy is in the living room with me...when she wakes, Grommy will go and chill in another room and she will come out of her crate

P.S..i would LOVE to go on a GSD walk and meet other owners . Thank you, once again BETH xxxxx

 

[gypsysmum]

Is she resource guarding? She may value a bed or a space enough to guard it from Grommy. She may be attacking him for going near what she regards as hers.

In general most dogs sort out dominance issues if we leave them to it. The underdog does not mind in the least being the underdog it is much less hard work than being top dog! The underdog just learns to avoid areas and situations that cause friction. It is us that find it all "not fair" if one dog is getting all the best spots, toys etc.

If you can get your head around just leaving them to sort themselves out then life might become much less stressful This, in turn, may make them both relax more and lead to them getting on better.

 

[Raven oaktree]

Hi gypsysmum, thanks for the reply . Im not sure if she is resource guarding, if she is then its the whole of the downstairs !!.Leaving them to fight out isnt an option im afraid, Grommy is very old, very sick and at the end of his life, she is 11kg heavier than him, younger, fitter...and she will do him some very serious damage..im just not prepared to take the risk. Im not really bothered about their pecking orer and im fully aware that whoever i chose to feed first etc wont make a jot of difference to the pecking order they have..i fully expected my old boy to move down the pecking order..Willow is a bitch, she is young and fit...and grommy is not...it stands to reason she would be higher..but i cant let hem fight it out, he is just too old to put that pressure nto him

 

[gypsysmum]

There is also the possibility that she is instinctively driving him away because he is so old and sick. It is not unheard of for dogs to do this. Of course, if this is the case, then you have to do all you can to protect him.

 

[Raven oaktree]

Thank you for the reply gypsysmum..someone else said the same. I took Willow to the vets yesterday and no one could believe her behaviour because she was such a sweetheart with everyone..including all the animals in the waiting room. Ive spoken to her dog walker today and she said she doesn't show an ounce of aggression with any of the dogs she is walked with or any of the dogs she meets. Everyone who knows her and is involved with her care..i.e..the dog trainer..dog walker..the vet..all think she is a sweetheart..granted she is a handful but that's a combination of her age..high intelligence and high energy...its just my old boy she has an issue with . Id booked a trainer that the,vet recommend to me..but I'm going to cancel..he seems to be a bully and works along the ceaser Milan route..i will keep looking and keep trying..thanks everyone x

 

[gypsysmum]

Look for a COAPE or APBC behaviourist.

 

[Raven oaktree]

Thanks gypsysmum, we have started working wih a fab trainer http://www.beastlythoughts.co.uk/ she is awaiting APBC approval..but she is wonderful and already Willow is making HUGE progress. Willow is a fantastic dog in a million ways, she is beautiful, clever, kind, loves people..she is full of energy and we need to keep an eye on her the whole time..but that is her age...she is making massive progress. took her to the garden center yesterday..BIG mistake..only popped in for some lovely organic cider they do..was in there nearly 2 hours..everyone stopped to talk to her..'isnt she lovely..isnt her coat beautiful..ist she good?' OMG thought we were never gonna get home hahahaha, she was perfectly behaved ..was so proud of her

 

[gypsysmum]

I see the proprietor has done the COAPE course in 2000 Looks brilliant!

Fabulous to hear how she enjoyed the garden centre

 

[Raven oaktree]

It is brilliant..i cant tell you how fabulous Karen is..she is wonderful with Willow..willow adores her and gets very excited when we arrive..i honestly think I will be taking as many classes and training as possible with this trainer.