The Kennel Club Wants "avoiding Action"

[~JO~]

Gay
Is the test  carried out by your vet?

Jenny

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Eye tests are carried out by BVA/KC panel vets. The kennel club pages give info on where to find a vet who is qualified to carry out the tests.

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I've just had a look and there are 31 vets in the country that can undertake the eye tests and issue certificates. It costs around the £30 mark, wouldn't it be good if a breed club arranged to have a vet at a breed show to make it easier (also cheaper I believe)

I think it is more important to test for these sort of problems then being completely guided by COI's. Yes of course we don't want our dogs getting more and more inbred, but a low COI doesn't guarantee a healthy dog - look at how many crossbreeds have problems. Monitoring and ensuring the health of the dogs we have and use in the future is paramount.

 

[alfie]

Gay
Is the test  carried out by your vet?

Jenny

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Eye tests are carried out by BVA/KC panel vets. The kennel club pages give info on where to find a vet who is qualified to carry out the tests.

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I've just had a look and there are 31 vets in the country that can undertake the eye tests and issue certificates. It costs around the £30 mark, wouldn't it be good if a breed club arranged to have a vet at a breed show to make it easier (also cheaper I believe)

Many years ago, when my Alfie was a youngster, they had Peter Bedford testing eyes at a Whippet Club show- I know it was cheaper because he was testing lots of Whippets. Never heard of any other eye testing sessions at shows since. I think it would be a really good idea.

Gay- you can add Alfie ( Perfect Pluto) to your database if you want, as he was tested clear :thumbsup:

Liz and the Monellis

I think it is more important to test for these sort of problems then being completely guided by COI's. Yes of course we don't want our dogs getting more and more inbred, but a low COI doesn't guarantee a healthy dog - look at how many crossbreeds have problems. Monitoring and ensuring the health of the dogs we have and use in the future is paramount.

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[dragonfly]

Gay
Is the test  carried out by your vet?

Jenny

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​

Eye tests are carried out by BVA/KC panel vets. The kennel club pages give info on where to find a vet who is qualified to carry out the tests.

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I've just had a look and there are 31 vets in the country that can undertake the eye tests and issue certificates. It costs around the £30 mark, wouldn't it be good if a breed club arranged to have a vet at a breed show to make it easier (also cheaper I believe)

I think it is more important to test for these sort of problems then being completely guided by COI's. Yes of course we don't want our dogs getting more and more inbred, but a low COI doesn't guarantee a healthy dog - look at how many crossbreeds have problems. Monitoring and ensuring the health of the dogs we have and use in the future is paramount.

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I agree that a low COI will not guarantee a healthy dog. The point of the low COI is for the good of the breed as a WHOLE. Low individual COI's will eventually translate to healthier individuals as a result of increased genetic diversity in the whole population. This will of course take time but is surely worth it.

Cathie

 

[Seraphina]

I really don't think you can breed dogs by numbers.  Of the 51 UK Champions since 2000, only 11 have a COI lower than 10 - for most of the big kennels it is in the 20s and 30s.  Of course we should be mindful of the genetic diversity - or lack of it - in the breed but don't let's throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

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I agree absolutely. Actually I have never really wanted to do the figures, just judging how inbred my pedigree is by looking at it. What was more important about assessing pedigree of potential litters was what I know about the dogs that would be doubled on.

I only started to calculate the CoI when I came to the 8-9th generations and found Dondelayo Statue 25 times. I just was not able to decide how relevant that was or was not without doing the calculations.

In any case doing the CoI for planned litter is one of the last things i would consider, the first and foremost thing is the suitability of the stud dog over my bitch.

And if had a choice of two dogs, one with CoI 1% but having the same faults as my bitch, or dog with CoI 2- - 30 % but be better and not share problems, I would go without hesitation for the second dog. That is provided that he is not closely related to my bitch.

I guess the aim should be to breed litters with lower CoI than the CoI of the high CoI parent? However once the CoI is at the level that is considered desirable, there is no reason for some closer matings.

 

[Seraphina]

I guess the aim should be to breed litters with lower CoI than the CoI of the high CoI parent?  However once the CoI is at the level that is considered desirable, there is no reason for some closer matings.

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menat to say;

However once the CoI is at the level that is considered desirable, there is no reason not to do some closer matings.

 

[bertha]

Liskeard and DCS arrange Eye Testing at one of their twice yearly shows for members at a reduced rate. So I shall take advantage of that at the next show and get Pye tested.

Is is the road to go down along with heart testing. Maybe we should put this to the Whippet Breed Council?

 

[moonlake]

Liskeard and DCS arrange Eye Testing at one of their twice yearly shows for members at a reduced rate. So I shall take advantage of that at the next show and get Pye tested.
Is is the road to go down along with heart testing. Maybe we  should put this to the Whippet Breed Council?

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I think that would be an excellent idea. Sorry not to have got back to this earlier today - had to leave at 7 am to take poor Mackintosh to have his personal bits off.

You can find eye testing sessions in the Dog Man's Diary section of Dog World - imagine they are in Our Dogs, too. Cost is around £21. I saw a KC eye clinic at the Game Fair and took the bitches I had with me there - sending in their KC reg certs afterwards. I got back a formal "result" (clear although Farthing had an unusual formation of something I can't remember- don't have the paperwork in front of me - which was apparently just a curiosity, not evidence of anything amiss) and eventually the egistrations came back with a stamp that they had been tested and were clear. One thing I should mention is that it is much better to do the test in the evening because I discovered when I had my own eyes dilated for a test that they are painfully sensitive to sunlight afterwards. In retrospect, I felt guilty having walked the girls in bright sunlight afterwards because it must have been unpleasant for them.

If anyone is in the Thame area, the testing session is next Tuesday 5 - 9 at Haddenham Village Hall (where WC show was) and is done by head honcho Peter Bedford. Person to ring to book is Polly on 01844 299508 after 6.30pm.

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

 

[bertha]

I had a strange thing with my Blue Orchid at Shaunvalley as she go older. I noticed small dark brown discs at the bottom of her eye, they moved as she moved her eye!, They were about the size of a small ball bearing and flat. When I had her at the vet for some thing, can't remember what, i mentioned it ti the vet, he had specialised in eyes at some stage. He was fascinated, apparently they were small blobs of blood, when he picked Impy up and turned her upside down, the blobs floated to the top of her eyes!!!!!! He had a student there that day and told him he ma never see that again it is so rare. It was nothing harmful, but every so often I think one of them must have crossed Impy's field of vision because she would suddenly spin round looking for something!



This has nothing to do with the topic.

:b

 

[moonlake]

If I was to choose just one thing to test in whippets, I would choose heart. British health survey presented by Cathie at the Congress shows that cardio issues are the first cause of death in whippets despite old age, as many as 13,8% die because of heart problem, and the average age of diagnosis is below 7 years, which is far to early to say "one must die of something". It means statistically you have a good chance to find affected puppy in each litter.

Whippets are also at the very high 8. rank in OFA ranking for heart diseases, above boxers, dobermanns and other breeds, considered being at risk.

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I have enquired about heart tests and my vet's response was "how much do you want to spend?". I have been aware of heart problems for some time since I bought a puppy from a line I had yearned for only to discover the next day that it had a serious problem (NOT a "murmur") and get the response from its breeder that if it didn't grow out of it, to get a litter from it as quickly as possible :angry: No chance of returning it or any interest in what was wrong.

If there is a standardised heart test that doesn't have to be repeated yearly, I should be interested to know about it. Before coursing was banned, all my dogs under 10 had their hearts checked at the beginning of each season but now it is only if they have to visit the vet for another reason and since they are not getting the same amount of exercise, I suspect they are not as "healthy" as they used to be.

I suspect that Felony, who died in her sleep aged only 12, while I was in the room so I know there was no kind of convulsion or any movement, died of a heart problem. It was a terrific shock to me because so unexpected - I expect mine to go on to 15 before anything goes wrong. Having said that, all three of my "olds" (Including Mackintosh although he is only 10) have some kind of hormonal problem which is a very depressing situation.

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

 

[whippynit]

The 3% COI suggested - are you basing this on 5 generations or 10?  Just wondered as obviously makes a bid difference to the figures depending on how many generations it is based upon.
Thanks

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Sorry everyone ...thanks for pointing out my mistake...clumsy fingers!

3% is a mistype. I meant to put 6% which is what the Swedish KC ask for. I know that it is not practical for everyone to get down there straight away but it would be something to aim for. If we can reduce the coefficients across the population by using a wider range of sires and bring in tested stock from abroad it would all help.

I think we should calculate the COI over 10 generations and as the Swedish do publish them along with other litter data.

Many whippets in the UK have COI's over 25%.

I feel that it is very important to consider the population as a whole, rather than individual litters and if everyone bred to increase diversity for a few generations the whippet would have an increased chance of remaining reasonably healthy.

Cathie

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I believe the Swedish calculate it over 5 generations.

I agree with eye and heart testing being undertaken more regularly. Gaye could you give some more info about the eye testing please?

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just wondered if someone can confirm if the swedish calculate over 5 or 10?

 

[Natalia]

If there is a standardised heart test that doesn't have to be repeated yearly, I should be interested to know about it.  Before coursing was banned, all my dogs under 10 had their hearts checked at the beginning of each season but now it is only if they have to visit the vet for another reason and since they are not getting the same amount of exercise, I suspect they are not as "healthy" as they used to be.

Sorry to hear about your sad experience with a puppy and this breeder

As regards heart tests - you can have a dog cardio checked at the age 12 month or more (after the heart stops growing). This should be done by a cardiologist vet. The cardiologic auscultation is a routine procedure, and covers many different points in the heart (14 or something like that if I remember correctly), an experienced specialist can not only detect a murmur, but tell from which valve (or other cause) it comes. If everything is perfectly ok, you can leave that as it is, in theory perfect result in auscultation means no further tests are needed. If you want to be 100% sure, you can do echocardio as well. This is a kind of USG, can measure all parts of the heart, the flow in different areas, contractility and many details - if the results of echo are good, you can be sure a dog does not have a congenital heart disease. Heart diseases in whippets are pulmonic stenosis and mitral valve insufficiency, some report also dilated cardiomyopathy. Maybe there are more I do not know about. All three cause murmurs and are diagnosed by cardiologic auscultation and echocardiography.

If the results are ok, you can just check your dogs heart during routine vet visits every year, to detect any murmur, if it developes. If it is not a congenital problem, dogs usually develop some slight murmurs first, even without any other signs. Routine checks should reveal that before it becomes serious.

What is important in doing cardio check - a vet having experience with whippets or other sighthounds (to know about features specific for sighthounds) and using recent reference values for whippets (normal values for all dogs are inapriopriate, as whippets have larger hearts, larger internal diameters, and lower contractility than other breed of comparable size). Using norm for "average" dogs a vet may think a whippet has a heart problem, whilst its heart can be perfectly normal for the breed. Fortunately very new (published last year) reference values are available. Here is the article: http://www.tinyurl.pl/?Hml6MApd

I have full text in a pdf file, if anyone would like to read it.

All this knowledge comes from my very recent consultations with cardiologists (the author of this article among them, who sent me the article mentioned earlier) regarding a cardio check in a whippet bitch - which was "bad" because of wrong reference values, but in fact it was ok. As this is a new knowledge for me, any more detailed answer would be much appreciated.

 

[Natalia]

just wondered if someone can confirm if the swedish calculate over 5 or 10?

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5 generations, and their goal is not exceed 2,5% in 5 generations

 

[jayp]

If there is a standardised heart test that doesn't have to be repeated yearly, I should be interested to know about it.  Before coursing was banned, all my dogs under 10 had their hearts checked at the beginning of each season but now it is only if they have to visit the vet for another reason and since they are not getting the same amount of exercise, I suspect they are not as "healthy" as they used to be.

Sorry to hear about your sad experience with a puppy and this breeder

As regards heart tests - you can have a dog cardio checked at the age 12 month or more (after the heart stops growing). This should be done by a cardiologist vet. The cardiologic auscultation is a routine procedure, and covers many different points in the heart (14 or something like that if I remember correctly), an experienced specialist can not only detect a murmur, but tell from which valve (or other cause) it comes. If everything is perfectly ok, you can leave that as it is, in theory perfect result in auscultation means no further tests are needed. If you want to be 100% sure, you can do echocardio as well. This is a kind of USG, can measure all parts of the heart, the flow in different areas, contractility and many details - if the results of echo are good, you can be sure a dog does not have a congenital heart disease. Heart diseases in whippets are pulmonic stenosis and mitral valve insufficiency, some report also dilated cardiomyopathy. Maybe there are more I do not know about. All three cause murmurs and are diagnosed by cardiologic auscultation and echocardiography.

If the results are ok, you can just check your dogs heart during routine vet visits every year, to detect any murmur, if it developes. If it is not a congenital problem, dogs usually develop some slight murmurs first, even without any other signs. Routine checks should reveal that before it becomes serious.

What is important in doing cardio check - a vet having experience with whippets or other sighthounds (to know about features specific for sighthounds) and using recent reference values for whippets (normal values for all dogs are inapriopriate, as whippets have larger hearts, larger internal diameters, and lower contractility than other breed of comparable size). Using norm for "average" dogs a vet may think a whippet has a heart problem, whilst its heart can be perfectly normal for the breed. Fortunately very new (published last year) reference values are available. Here is the article: http://www.tinyurl.pl/?Hml6MApd

I have full text in a pdf file, if anyone would like to read it.

All this knowledge comes from my very recent consultations with cardiologists (the author of this article among them, who sent me the article mentioned earlier) regarding a cardio check in a whippet bitch - which was "bad" because of wrong reference values, but in fact it was ok. As this is a new knowledge for me, any more detailed answer would be much appreciated.

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Hi Natalia, Thanks i would be interested to read the full text

pencleave@hotmail.co.uk Jan

 

[whippynit]

just wondered if someone can confirm if the swedish calculate over 5 or 10?

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5 generations, and their goal is not exceed 2,5% in 5 generations

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thank you

 

[anne]

A great thread, and some very interesting posts so far.
It does seem an excellent and forward thinking idea to have all COI's on pedigrees, and this is something that only the Kennel Club can practically do.  If this was something that all breeders were looking at when planning their matings, it would be very obvious from the start whether this was a safe mating or not.

And if it were well publicised, and the general public were kept informed on what the COI is (and I think with all the interest in pedigree dog breeding in the press recently, this is an excellent time to start), they will start to ask for this information from breeders, and turn down inbred pups as being potentially unhealthy.

The KC must act, firmly and intelligently, to enable conscientious breeders to safeguard the health and welfare of all our beloved pedigree dogs.

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I agree totally with you Beth. The first time I looked at genetics, I though s*d this I'm taking the dogs out, I just did not think I could get my head round it. I then thought I was wimping out and ought to try and understand it, I read an article by Steve Jones, Professor of Genetics at UCL, and thought long and hard about it. My next step was to obtain Natalia's notes from The Whippet Congress and have progressed from there. I don't profess to understand it all but I do understand enough to be very concerned.

I am not a breeder and never will be now, but I am probably one of the most important people as far as any breeder is concerned and that is a potential puppy buyer, so I have decided that my input is valuable.

I watched Pedigree Dogs Exposed and it broke my heart and I have continued to be saddened at the way the CKCS breed is tearing itself apart. The Kennel Club can get through this and come out stronger but they are going to have to take firm action. They are hurting at present but I believe they will do the right thing, it makes no sense whatsoever not to.

I have probably read every article on this subject in Our Dogs and Dog World and time after time in the many articles in support of The Kennel Club come across the word however, many of the writers , whilst being incensed by the programme, have to agree that there are problems which need addressing and there is certainly no smoke without fire. I would like to see every breed put under the spotlight, we have nothing to lose by it and everything to gain.

Jenny

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Being new to whippets I felt the same way as you Jenny, but with all the issues raised by this thread am starting to research and read and talk.

I accept all the ideas and solutions put forward by people who have obviously studied this in some depth. I think the health and welfare of our dogs is our prime individual responsibility and we also have a collective responsibility to ensure for the collective health of the breed.

It sounds to me like there are many things that could be done to improve the situation, that are based on evidence, research and international practice. What I am unclear about is where to go from here, how do we organise to effect the changes required?

Anne

 

[bertha]

We should start with the Whippet Breed Council as they are our voice to the Kennel Club, if all members of breed clubs ask the committees to bring this up at a club level meeting, it can then go to the Breed Council for inclusion at their next meeting.

It will be a long haul I think , but something that needs addressing.

 

[jayp]

We should start with the Whippet Breed Council as they are our voice to the Kennel Club, if all members of breed clubs ask the committees to bring this up at a club level meeting, it can then go to the Breed Council for inclusion at their next meeting.
It will be a long haul I think , but something that needs addressing.

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For anyone who wishes there is a proposal to go forward to the breed clubs, this has taken some time and research to put together, anyone interested please pm me and i can forward a copy for your questions and feedback Jan

OOps forgot to say i will have some copies at SYWC tomorrow so if you come and ask i can let you have one

 

[dolly]

Harry was eye testing lst year, costing around £15, it was at one of the shows at Stafford.

His reg form was stamped there and then . Also copies to my vet and the KC

 

[Scudder]

Might I remind everyone that the Whippet Health Foundation here in the US is equipped to handle foreign dogs (we have quite a few Canadian dogs entered).

You can enter the information and scan the results of tests and the data operators will approve the information and post it to the database which is open to the public.

The database is hosted at Whippet Health Foundation

I'm in the process of getting all my information from my vets to post there as I have a dog with auto-immune disease as well as another with a cardiac problem. Most of my dogs have tested free and clear and those are just as important to post.

The nice thing about the database is that even though you can enter the information as an owner, its fact-checked by members of the Whippet Health Foundation - so no one from the public can update your personal dog.

A lot of our dogs are tested at the AWC National Show each year. This year was the first time they have made DEEP discounts (on top of normally great prices) for people who agreed to have the information post directly to the WHF website. There were clinics for heart (echo), CERF (eyes), BAER (hearing) and Myostatin Deficiency("bully" gene).

Just a thought as you look for a place to host information! :cheers:

Kristen

 

[quintessence]

Doesn't it just show how many people would prefer to just bury their heads in the sand and ignore health problems- the members of the CKCS committee have called a SGM to get Margaret Carter expelled- she was the lady on the programme insisting that Cavalier breeders needed to recognise how serious the health problems were...
Liz and the Monellis

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She was voted off today, there was a very large attendance. I don't know how you explain this to the owner of a pet CKCS affected with Syringomyelia.

Jenny