We have been consistently training recall with our. dog ever since she came home at 8 weeks, she's now 14 months. We always carry high value treats (cheese/sausage) and use these for recall only. Every walk will involve several recalls and sometimes she gets one piece and sometimes several bits of cheese, she's then allowed to go back to playing/running. She was pretty good with coming back and I was reasonably confident, however lately (last month or so) this has started to slip and it seems that she will come tearing back to us if she has nothing better to do! If there is any distraction then that wins. She will respond to verbal cues, or a whistle and she will even respond to a visual clue if she's looking at us, but mostly when it suits her. I now feel much less confident that she will come back if I really need her to. Is there anything else I should be doing or could try to improve this. Ive heard it said that dogs can go through a 'teenage' period when they are flexing their own will and wondered if this could be the case and if so when might this end. Any advice greatly received.
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Recall not as good as it should be!
- Thread starter Peegee
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She's past 12-mos, so this isn't teenaged behavior - she's an adult, & as it's been repeatedly successful - she ignores a recall, or returns at her leisure -- she's gonna keep doing it. Dogs do what works. If hearing a recall or seeing a 'come in' cue & then continuing to potter about satisfies her need of the moment, & there's no bad consequence, why stop?
OTOH, we don't want to introduce remote punishments / aversives, either. There's far too-much risk of fallout.
Basically, this is a matter of preventing opportunities to ignore a recall, which means IME hang a long-line on a body-harness & don't let her run free [with the drag!, always, when she's off-leash] unless it's in an area where U are willing & able to walk up to the dragging line, tread on it before bending to pick it up, & then and only then - call her.
If need be, drag her in fighting every inch of the way like a hooked sailfish - machts nichts, no matter how she gets there, she is praised warmly on arrival & rewarded.
Treading on the drag before picking it up avoids having her connect the dots [handler bends to retrieve dragline, i'm caught!!! - becomes, handler bends to retrieve dragline, GO GO GO... , which means happy opps for a swearing, sweating owner to try to catch a gleeful dog. Bad language is inevitable.]
I'd switch rewards from food [fine for lower-level challenges] to a strongly-conditioned tuggee, something U can stuff in a pocket & pull out as needed. An interactive reward is a lot more engaging, & it has to be able to compete with other dogs / other humans / wildlife - the bunny that just leaped out from a tussock, the fleeing deer... Etc.
I'd also work on teaching Super-Tug - using her super-special tuggee only. // Instructions for teaching should be many places on the Web - if U can't find 'em, i will, or i'll write 'em, if need be.
- terry
OTOH, we don't want to introduce remote punishments / aversives, either. There's far too-much risk of fallout.
Basically, this is a matter of preventing opportunities to ignore a recall, which means IME hang a long-line on a body-harness & don't let her run free [with the drag!, always, when she's off-leash] unless it's in an area where U are willing & able to walk up to the dragging line, tread on it before bending to pick it up, & then and only then - call her.
If need be, drag her in fighting every inch of the way like a hooked sailfish - machts nichts, no matter how she gets there, she is praised warmly on arrival & rewarded.
Treading on the drag before picking it up avoids having her connect the dots [handler bends to retrieve dragline, i'm caught!!! - becomes, handler bends to retrieve dragline, GO GO GO... , which means happy opps for a swearing, sweating owner to try to catch a gleeful dog. Bad language is inevitable.]
I'd switch rewards from food [fine for lower-level challenges] to a strongly-conditioned tuggee, something U can stuff in a pocket & pull out as needed. An interactive reward is a lot more engaging, & it has to be able to compete with other dogs / other humans / wildlife - the bunny that just leaped out from a tussock, the fleeing deer... Etc.
I'd also work on teaching Super-Tug - using her super-special tuggee only. // Instructions for teaching should be many places on the Web - if U can't find 'em, i will, or i'll write 'em, if need be.
- terry
Thanks for your detailed reply. Interesting to hear you say that she is an adult now as I've had lots of conflicting answers on this one due, I've been advised, to different breeds having different developmental ages. I understand what you mean about the long line but this would be very difficult for us to use as we live in a very rural situation and our walks are very rarely in wide open spaces but in woods. If we took her to open spaces where there are other dogs and people wouldn't a long drag line be a bit of a hinderance, and even a safety hazard?
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Giant breeds of 125# or more reach social adulthood [vis a vis other dogs] between 2 & 3-YO.
All dogs are biologically adults when they can reproduce - so after 1st estrus or 6-MO in Fs, & as soon as they have viable sperm in Ms, which on average is around 6-MO.
In toy-breeds, fertility can arrive as early as 12-WO -- one precocious male pup bred his own dam on her next heat in the U.K.; he was 12-WO, & had the call-name Romeo because he persistently humped other dogs & humans starting at just 7-WO. // Thankfully, 12-WO is not common - 5-MO is quite possible, tho.
re length
it needn't be a 30-ft drag -- unless she's a habitual chase-me dog, 12 to 15-ft should be fine. Just don't tip her off by staring at her as U approach the drag, & traveling in an arc vs going directly to the trailing end is also advisable.
it's unlikely to be any sort of safety hazard to anyone; if she steps on it herself, it's very unlikely to hurt her or loop round her own legs, & unlike a Flexi or any other extendable, it's not under spring-tension & won't cut anyone, nor can it snap apart - there's no plastic carrying-case to hit a solid object & "explode".
Other dogs can step on her drag without hurting her or themselves - it's unlikely that a passing dog would use her dragline as a tug-of-war object, since dogs prefer to argue over the possession of a toy, not over who "owns" a leash or a rope.
All dogs are biologically adults when they can reproduce - so after 1st estrus or 6-MO in Fs, & as soon as they have viable sperm in Ms, which on average is around 6-MO.
In toy-breeds, fertility can arrive as early as 12-WO -- one precocious male pup bred his own dam on her next heat in the U.K.; he was 12-WO, & had the call-name Romeo because he persistently humped other dogs & humans starting at just 7-WO. // Thankfully, 12-WO is not common - 5-MO is quite possible, tho.
re length
it needn't be a 30-ft drag -- unless she's a habitual chase-me dog, 12 to 15-ft should be fine. Just don't tip her off by staring at her as U approach the drag, & traveling in an arc vs going directly to the trailing end is also advisable.
it's unlikely to be any sort of safety hazard to anyone; if she steps on it herself, it's very unlikely to hurt her or loop round her own legs, & unlike a Flexi or any other extendable, it's not under spring-tension & won't cut anyone, nor can it snap apart - there's no plastic carrying-case to hit a solid object & "explode".
Other dogs can step on her drag without hurting her or themselves - it's unlikely that a passing dog would use her dragline as a tug-of-war object, since dogs prefer to argue over the possession of a toy, not over who "owns" a leash or a rope.
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How big is your dog? What breed or mix? I think that age is a big thing here- she may be adult in biological terms, but behaviourally she's right in the 'I'm a little monster' phase for lots of breeds.
Personally I'd go back to basics and take her somewhere that you know she can't escape from and where she's more likely to be bored than excited, and I'd watch her like a hawk to see where and when the cues that she's going to go off awandering happen. I learned to spot the moment of quiet and calm before Molly (the adorable but frustrating rescue GSD in my avatar) started reacting to another dog, and spotting that moment and interrupting it was the key to moderating her behaviour. If I called her before she had done that little moment of composure then there was no reaction and I could call her back to me and put her on the lead for the dog avoiding routine.
I also advise people that are going to try the long line then a steel cored washing line attached to a harness is sometimes the best way to go. It doesn't put their neck at risk in the event that it gets caught up, and you can tailor the length to the dog and standing on the end will stop all bar the most determined of dogs.
If you can interrupt her decision process on going for a wander with a piece of lovely bribe then you may be able to get her out of her boundary testing quickly.
Good luck
Personally I'd go back to basics and take her somewhere that you know she can't escape from and where she's more likely to be bored than excited, and I'd watch her like a hawk to see where and when the cues that she's going to go off awandering happen. I learned to spot the moment of quiet and calm before Molly (the adorable but frustrating rescue GSD in my avatar) started reacting to another dog, and spotting that moment and interrupting it was the key to moderating her behaviour. If I called her before she had done that little moment of composure then there was no reaction and I could call her back to me and put her on the lead for the dog avoiding routine.
I also advise people that are going to try the long line then a steel cored washing line attached to a harness is sometimes the best way to go. It doesn't put their neck at risk in the event that it gets caught up, and you can tailor the length to the dog and standing on the end will stop all bar the most determined of dogs.
If you can interrupt her decision process on going for a wander with a piece of lovely bribe then you may be able to get her out of her boundary testing quickly.
Good luck
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this video shows a buddy of mine with his piebald BC, playing while training -
the toy is a sturdy rubber cast-frame "ball", actually a skeletal sphere - the hefty bars are easy for a dog to grab, & they won't hurt teeth, plus being solid rubber, don't shred easily.
It's on a bungee cord for 'give', & the bungee is tied to a long-line for dragging, flinging, & whirling it about. Lots of exercise, lots of fun!
"Tug of Peace" is a good foundation for Super-Tug. Rules are in lots of places - teach a default-drop as soon as U begin, by going deadweight with the tugging arm, then as soon as the dog LETS GO, praise & instantly present the toy for more tug, with a flourish!
The reward for drop = more tug, hurrah!
the toy is a sturdy rubber cast-frame "ball", actually a skeletal sphere - the hefty bars are easy for a dog to grab, & they won't hurt teeth, plus being solid rubber, don't shred easily.
It's on a bungee cord for 'give', & the bungee is tied to a long-line for dragging, flinging, & whirling it about.
Lots of exercise, lots of fun!"Tug of Peace" is a good foundation for Super-Tug. Rules are in lots of places - teach a default-drop as soon as U begin, by going deadweight with the tugging arm, then as soon as the dog LETS GO, praise & instantly present the toy for more tug, with a flourish!
The reward for drop = more tug, hurrah!
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14 months is, in my opinion, smack bang in the middle of the teenage years. Ask any rescue when all the "I can't manage him" dogs come in. The average age is 14 months. So, hang in there! I have just gone through it with my rescue. He went in to rescue at 12 months!
Use whichever reward works for your dog. When he does come back you should be ecstatic! Produce fantastic treats, have a game of tug or ball, give him a cuddle, run away from him. In short, whatever works for him.
Put in lots of recalls during your walk and start to introduce a "frustration" element. Every once in a while he does not get the fantastic reward. This can have a dramatic effect. The best way to describe it is the difference between a vending machine, that pays out every time, and a gaming machine, that only pays out occasionally. Which one is more addictive?
I reward for difficult recalls and award "stars" such as a one star reward for a short, easy for my dog, recall, up to a five star coming back from a chase! Easy recalls, with no distractions etc, just get a smile and a "good dog"!
Use whichever reward works for your dog. When he does come back you should be ecstatic! Produce fantastic treats, have a game of tug or ball, give him a cuddle, run away from him. In short, whatever works for him.
Put in lots of recalls during your walk and start to introduce a "frustration" element. Every once in a while he does not get the fantastic reward. This can have a dramatic effect. The best way to describe it is the difference between a vending machine, that pays out every time, and a gaming machine, that only pays out occasionally. Which one is more addictive?
I reward for difficult recalls and award "stars" such as a one star reward for a short, easy for my dog, recall, up to a five star coming back from a chase! Easy recalls, with no distractions etc, just get a smile and a "good dog"!
Thank you so much for your helpful replies. I will definitely introduce the 'star' awards and include an occasional no treat award. To your questions Eingana, she is a cocker/poodle cross (Cockapoo) and is medium sized, 11kg. Gypsysmum, when she's been distracted but does eventually come back, she is always so pleased with herself, should that be a 'big' occasion or a less rewarding one for her? What I want to do, of course, is be really cross, but I do manage to hide that and reward her for coming back.
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Oh yes whenever she comes to you it is a big occasion, never be cross with her, I realise you said you hide it but I am just emphasising it. And as to age, in my opinion its not yet an adult, after all a human female can reproduce at say 12 but no way could she be called an adult.
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She should always enjoy coming back. This means hiding your irritation and rewarding her in some way.
When you say she is "pleased with herself" is she really picking up your emotions (frustration/anger/disappointment) and apologising to you? Dogs are experts at reading our emotions and she will know that you are not a happy person.
To answer your question - you need to think of the next recall. What will she think when she hears you call her next time? You want her to think "Ah - that sound means that treats/games/cuddles are on offer" not that you will ignore her when she gets to you. So, I would reward her in some way but not the same reward that she gets for a fantastic, wheel spin of a recall. Having said all that, it is better to ignore her than show any kind of negative reaction. Do remember that going straight back on lead is classed as a negative reaction so, if she has to go back on lead, do wait at least ten seconds before actually doing it. As above you do not want her to think "Ah - that sound means that it is time to go back on lead"
Hang on in there. Keep practising. Remember that they are none of them machines.
When you say she is "pleased with herself" is she really picking up your emotions (frustration/anger/disappointment) and apologising to you? Dogs are experts at reading our emotions and she will know that you are not a happy person.
To answer your question - you need to think of the next recall. What will she think when she hears you call her next time? You want her to think "Ah - that sound means that treats/games/cuddles are on offer" not that you will ignore her when she gets to you. So, I would reward her in some way but not the same reward that she gets for a fantastic, wheel spin of a recall. Having said all that, it is better to ignore her than show any kind of negative reaction. Do remember that going straight back on lead is classed as a negative reaction so, if she has to go back on lead, do wait at least ten seconds before actually doing it. As above you do not want her to think "Ah - that sound means that it is time to go back on lead
"Hang on in there. Keep practising. Remember that they are none of them machines.
Thanks again for your help. When I say she's pleased with herself, I mean when she responds to a recall (even if it's when she fancies) she always comes bounding back at full speed and skids to a halt waiting expectantly, she never returns cautiously or slowly. One other thing, if she ignores my calling her I've been advised that I shouldn't keep calling her as this just reinforces the fact that she can ignore me, if she's fairly close by then I would usually go over to her and get her, what should I do if she is a distance away and I really need her to come to me?
I did have the same thought Biker John, about human reproduction not being an indicator of adulthood. Unfortunately she totally ignored my husband this morning and also jumped up at a woman so he marched her back home without a walk!! i think he believes that will teach her a valuable lesson!
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I don't know why, many posts don't come up when i click on 'unread content'. :huh: Strange. I miss a whole buncha updates.
Anyway, humans females only recently began having menses before double-digits; rBGH, 'recombinant Bovine Growth Hormone' in all conventional dairy products in the U-S, is a massive factor in the rapidly-increasing number of girls as young as 9-YO who are having their 1st menses, developing breasts, & other secondary sex-traits. This isn't 'normal' by any stretch of imagination.
Hormonal mimics are also found in plastics, can-liners, food wrappers, grease-proofing products, & many, many other packaging items that come into direct contact with FOOD - we ingest them, & they play havoc with our development, metabolism, & more. // Many of these hormonal mimics are carcinogens.
Before the arrival of processed foods & chemical / hormonal exposures, most young women were not menstruating before 14 to 15-YO... which was often when they got married, as they couldn't expect to live much past 40. // More protein in diets & higher BMIs led to earlier fertility.
Delaying marriage when women died so young served no purpose; higher education was closed to most women, & bearing children was their primary function, with "making a home" [housework -- cook, clean, etc] their secondary purpose. A woman who didn't die in childbed or of infectious disease or trauma could expect, if she married at "the usual age" [by 18 or 20 at most] to bear 10 or more children before menopause finally gave her a break from pregnancy / nursing, preg / nursing, preg...
Many men went thru 2 or even 3 wives, as he was widowed, re-married, had more kids, widowed... // Children were HANDS on a farm or in home-based industry well into the 1930s. In the 1850s & well-into 1910s / '20s, children as young as 7-YO worked - in mines, mills, & other industries, often in dangerous tight places where adults did not fit.
In developed nations, we now delay marriage, often delay our first pregnancy to get a career going, yet FERTILITY keeps moving to younger & younger ages. This is a problem.
- terry
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Your husband and mine should get together! I have now stopped him walking my dog on his own. He just undoes all the work I have put in
Above you said that when she comes to you she displays happy behaviour. Is it appeasing behaviour? If so it may be that your husband, like mine, is economical with praise (that is a polite way of saying he gets cross when she eventually returns).
If she is having fun while running around with other dogs then we have to think of a reward that beats that fun by a mile. It can be very, very difficult with some dogs. My own dog has a very strong prey drive and if he gets scent of any wildlife nothing in this world is better, to him. than to chase it. I could have the dog equivalent of caviar and champagne to lure him back but it would not float his boat. I manage this by only allowing him off lead when I am fairly certain he cannot "practice" his naughty behaviour. The more times they practice, and enjoy, a behaviour the harder it is to remedy it.
He will, however, do a wheelspin recall away from other dogs or people. They hold no interest for him. This shows that there is nothing wrong with his recall training just his motivation for leaving a chase. I continue to work on it and, as he has passed the age of three, I do see chinks of light
Thanks Gypsysmum. My husband is adamant that this was a one off! I don't think it's appeasing behaviour, she does genuinely seem perfectly happy and keen to get her bit of cheese/sausage (now delivered in bigger pieces). She doesn't appear worried or cautious in any way. Evie sounds the same as yours with regard to deer/foxes or anything really that runs in the opposite direction. If they just stood still and faced her then she'd run back to me, no problem. It's reassuring to hear that your dog is 3 and still a work in progress. I shall continue with the recalls. What do you do if your dog doesn't come back - i know I shouldn't keep calling her and I will go and get her if I can, but if she's a distance away, should I stop calling her and wait until I think she might respond?
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I would not go and get her. This teaches them that they can run off and you will follow. Not only are they having fun but you are joining in.
I just hang around where I last saw him. There is a theory that you should not keep calling as it dilutes the effectiveness of the recall by letting them keep ignoring it. I find it hard to do nothing so I give a whistle every now and then to indicate where I am. He does always come back and usually to where we are. One time he judged that we would, by now, be further along on our walk and was spotted there, looking for us, by doggy friends. I have also seen him tracking us, but back the way we had come not forward to where we were waiting!
I have introduced another signal. I use it when I am close enough to him. I go in the field and order him "out". When I first did it I was so frustrated at him hunting up and down the lines of sugar beet that I got cross and chased him out of the field. Nothing awful just me stamping my feet and sending him out. Since then, if he is close enough, he will respond to "out" and come out for a treat.
This is not he same as following as I don't leave our chosen path by far, in fact I don't leave it at all now. I just wait until his hunting brings him close enough and then tell him "out". All very frustrating. He is, of course, not off lead anywhere near roads and if I just wait he will always come and find me. I decide whether to reward him on an individual basis. If I think he has responded to a whistle, or call, then I do reward. If he has just returned because the hare has gone then he gets nothing.
We have good days and bad days but I know from experience that things do improve but they are not robots.
I just hang around where I last saw him. There is a theory that you should not keep calling as it dilutes the effectiveness of the recall by letting them keep ignoring it. I find it hard to do nothing so I give a whistle every now and then to indicate where I am. He does always come back and usually to where we are. One time he judged that we would, by now, be further along on our walk and was spotted there, looking for us, by doggy friends. I have also seen him tracking us, but back the way we had come not forward to where we were waiting!
I have introduced another signal. I use it when I am close enough to him. I go in the field and order him "out". When I first did it I was so frustrated at him hunting up and down the lines of sugar beet that I got cross and chased him out of the field. Nothing awful just me stamping my feet and sending him out. Since then, if he is close enough, he will respond to "out" and come out for a treat.
This is not he same as following as I don't leave our chosen path by far, in fact I don't leave it at all now. I just wait until his hunting brings him close enough and then tell him "out". All very frustrating. He is, of course, not off lead anywhere near roads and if I just wait he will always come and find me. I decide whether to reward him on an individual basis. If I think he has responded to a whistle, or call, then I do reward. If he has just returned because the hare has gone then he gets nothing.
We have good days and bad days but I know from experience that things do improve but they are not robots.
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I have often wondered about dogs being selective about their recall. I know my Whippet is great most of the time, but when she sees a rabbit or squirrel she's off after it and will not respond. But I know that I'm a reader and often during my life I've been reading when someone, normally my wife, pokes me and I realise she has been talking to me. Now honestly it's not a case of me ignoring her it is that I have not heard her because I am so absorbed. So I tend to think the Whippet is the same, some prey to chase so her brain is completely taken over by the chase and she does not actually hear me. Fortunately larger things don't interest her and rabbits go under ground quickly and squirrels go up a tree so the chase is soon over.
Thanks all. Evie has only run off and really out of sight a couple of times. The first time I thought I'd lost her and ran home to get my husband to come and help. when we eventually found her back where she'd run off, she did appear to be very distressed, not because I was angry which I wasn't, just relieved, but because she had lost us. We are lucky that nearly all our walks are miles from any roads so I'm not worried about that and if she chases after deer or scent then I feel confident that she will come back eventually. The problem mainly is if we're walking on the beach or on the common for instance and there are people sitting on the ground, then she has to run up to them and often jump all over them in her excitement,. It is on these occasions that she mostly completely ignores us and it is extremely embarrassing to say the least. I am very apologetic and tell them she is still a puppy but not sure how long I can get away with that one! She's now 14 months.
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What a good analogy Biker John! I am sure that is exactly what is going on. My dog has a fantastic recall in a training situation just not when "absorbed" with hunting I watched him carefully, when he was tracking us (the wrong way - so going back the way we had come). He was trying to find us but really could not hear me calling him. I crossed a large stubble field towards him and could see, eventually, that he was picking up the sound of my whistle and voice. He turned and came back with a look of huge relief.
Peegee, all you can do is keep trying to find things that she prefers more than people! I know it looks rude, when she is jumping all over people, but try running away from her and calling her in an excited voice. When she (eventually!) gets to you she must receive the most fabulous rewards one after the other. This could be five or more high value treats one after the other, a thrilling game of tug or chase the ball, super cuddles and fuss. Why not all three?!
I watched him carefully, when he was tracking us (the wrong way - so going back the way we had come). He was trying to find us but really could not hear me calling him. I crossed a large stubble field towards him and could see, eventually, that he was picking up the sound of my whistle and voice. He turned and came back with a look of huge relief.Peegee, all you can do is keep trying to find things that she prefers more than people! I know it looks rude, when she is jumping all over people, but try running away from her and calling her in an excited voice. When she (eventually!) gets to you she must receive the most fabulous rewards one after the other. This could be five or more high value treats one after the other, a thrilling game of tug or chase the ball, super cuddles and fuss. Why not all three?!
