Puppy biology. Just a quick question. I hope to help as well bombard with questions as a newbie.

[Chris Mc]

I didn't get biology CSE. I don't know much about lady doggy things either. I've done some google searches before bothering you and yielded no answers. So. My vet said that my two male dogs haven't got any idea about the sex of my puppy Ethel yet. I forgot to ask her when she might start getting hormones? She's now 12 weeks.

 

[excuseme]

Are your other two boys neutered? It is best if you wait until your girl has matured and finished growing or had at least 1 season before neutering her.
I know, that did not actually answer your question. Sorry

 

[merlina]

I think it differs a lot breed to breed. Around 8 months to a year is commonest though very large breeds are later and very tiny ones can be earlier. Say 10 months is average for a medium size bitch. I agree about not spaying too soon. Google all the signs of a season and be watchful with your new girl. Your boys can have a one-off hormone injection that will depress their 'urges' and get you through your bitch's first cycle without too much trauma.

 

[Chris Mc]

Thanks to you both for replying. Both boys are neutered. Basically, Robbie was sniffing Ethel's rear end for the first time today, then started wagging his tail for the first time, then play nudged her. Since she arrived 4 weeks ago, I've had 2 weeks of air-snapping followed by two weeks of ignoring her. I wondered if this morning's development was because Ethel was starting to give off a female scent or something, meaning that the boys were now going to see her as a female (so the pack dynamics started to get better because the lads knew what was what??). Or, did my vet mean that Ethel won't be giving any hormones off (to signal to the boys that shes a girl), until her first period or season in 6 or 8 months time? I'm aware that I'm in danger of sounding really thick here, but I have female human friends who likely wouldn't know, and - well to put it bluntly - we're a man-man marriage, brilliant around what's the best blades and shaving foam, but embarrassingly totally clueless about ... well you know ... female doggy intimate things.

 

[JoanneF]

I suspect it's less to do with girl stuff and more to do with starting to accept her as part of the family

 

[merlina]

Oh yeah, I agree! If it's not sex then it's just pack dynamics. And don't worry too much about her girly-ness- to the boys she's just a new source of interest and somebody to play with.

 

[Flobo]

Agree with the above and fair play to you, the only daft question is the one you don't ask!!

 

[Flobo]

Ps, I don't mean just you I mean 'you' as in anyone..

 

[leashedForLife]

QUOTE, Chris McAteer:

... My vet said that my two male dogs have NO IDEA (which) sex my puppy Ethel (is), yet.
I forgot to ask ... when my pup might start getting hormones? She's now 12 weeks old.

__________________________
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No way.
Sorry to disagree with the vet, but she’s flat-out wrong if she literally said, in essence, that pups - of either gender! - have no sexual hormones prior to puberty, & are in essence sexless. It’s just not so.

Pups are born Mor F, or rarely, intersex, or with both sex’s attributes; but they HAVE gender at birth. // Contrary to the vet, Ur dogs are very well-aware that she’s a she...

There are 2 reasons for getting her desexed before standard full-blown puberty at 6-MO, when she would be expected to enter her 1st estrus.

The 1st & most important is her own health & lifespan: spay prior to 1st estrus virtually eliminates any risk of breast cancer, 4x as common in F dogs as in F humans, & many-times more lethal.// Almost 7 of 10 Fs diagnosed with breast malignancies are euthed at the same vet-appt as their Dx, here in the U-S.
That’s not b/c their owners don’t pay attn to symptoms, or don’t want to treat their dog’s cancer - it’s b/c by the time she has symptoms, it’s already metastasized to her lungs, & no treatment is possible.

The 2nd is that she could enter estrus any time after 16-WO if another bitch nearby came into estrus, & those pheromones can affect her from over a mile away; if the wind is right, 2 or more miles is possible.
So another F dog U’ve never seen, could trigger Ur pup’s 1st estrus ahead of her expected “ calendar age”, & with 2 intact Ms in the house, they would know it before U did. // An unplanned pregnancy is very possible, & if her 1st season is not textbook standard, a surprise litter is probable - rather than possible.

She could have a silent estrus (no discharge, minimal swelling), a split estrus, or worst of all, a pseudo or phantom pregnancy- requiring hormones to quash, making her behavior erratic & emotional, & complicating life considerably, as it will delay her desex.
She might secrete milk, steal & guard small objects as her “pups” (a cell phone, a shoe, eyeglasses, the TV remote... ), & be very testy with her humans, & downright snappy toward her M conspecifics.
She could already be preg, & U don’t realize it till she’s pudgy, has boobies, & her teats pink up. Because a silent season & a slip mounting, when the M dog doesn’t tie, can take just seconds vs the 20 to 30 mins of a tied mating, & her heat would swiftly end, she could be over 20-days into her 63 to 65 day pregnancy, B4 U had an inkling.

I can’t imagine why the vet said she’s neuter- puppies are BORN with gender; they start puberty between 10 & 12 WO, & are over their heads, swimming in sexual hormones, by 6-MO.

6-MO Ms produce viable sperm, & can & will mount their dams or sisters - dogs don’t give a hoot about incest. 6-MO Fs are usually in estrus, or close to it, & F pups can enter estrus as young as 4-MO & be heavily preg by 20-WO, which is not good for either the bitch or her pending litter; just like humans, underage pregnancies are high risk, & pups like infants can be preterm, underwt, underdeveloped, have respiratory problems, etc, plus the bitch loses growth & bone to the growing litter; the body temporarily chooses the pregnancy as paramount, & will rob the dam of calcium to build puppy skeletons; if the pregnant dam is feral or malnourished, the PUPS get priority till they are born, & then during lactation, too.
Underage dams can be stunted by a 6-MO pregnancy. Their teeth are especially at risk, due to calcium theft.

I know pubertal & pre-pubertal desex are very recent in the U-K, while in the U-S, pediatric desex before 12-WO has been standard in municipal shelters & all rescues since the 1980s. Studies have repeatedly found that pediatric desex is actually the safest age, per all the surgical risks & any complications; pre-pubertal is next best, pubertal is 3rd safest, & adult desex surgeries are actually the riskiest of all.
Young pups & kittens are under GA for the shortest time of any age, they fast for just a few hours, & are eating, drinking, & playing within 2-hrs post surgery; they almost never need pain meds, heal faster with less internal scarring, & have the lowest complication rate.

If U are in the UK & the vet worries about spay at 4.5 to 5.5-MO, go to Cats’ Protection website & find their “early neuter” list of participating vets’ practices; over 200 U-K vets will S/N kittens between 10 & 12-wks age, & most of them should be willing to spay a 4 to 5-MO dog, surely!

She’s not breeding age yet, but she was born female , & any dog who meets her, whether in the flesh or via scent only, will know immediately her sex, approx age, state of general health, overall similarity of genotype to their own (similar / dissimilar), her emotional state, & her reproductive status - all via their noses.

- terry

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[Chris Mc]

Flippin eck! (the Lancashire way of saying Gee Whizz I think). That's a lot of information Terry. I think I mentioned in an earlier reply on this thread that both dogs are not intact, so the sperm thing isn't a problem, and neither dogs have been sires because I am a pet owner. My vet says it's a "six of one and half a dozen of the other" argument as to whether I have her spayed before or after her first heat. My breeder said when I picked her up that it's best to let her have one season before spaying if I can cope with the season, so it looks like I'll have to think hard, including your advice now.

Ethel's definitely a female (she's not a hermaphrodite or anything ambiguous). My vet was just saying that my dogs won't know Ethel's a female because they don't know what 'bits and bobs' are and she hasn't got any hormones that signal something sexual to my dogs yet. Like I say, I forgot to ask her how long this lasts before she starts emitting something that tells my dogs she's a female. I don't even know if dogs differentiate gender consciously, though I'm sure their sexual behaviour will be different towards females (unless they're like me lol). After four weeks, things are getting better. I think what Joanne and Melina say sounds easier to understand. They are probably getting more accepting of her as a new thing. However, I am definitely going to endeavour to understand everything you've kindly advised. I'm not too old to put my mind to understanding biology. Thank you for replying.

 

[leashedForLife]

.

I am -so- sorry! -
I totally missed the post that explained both her k9 housemates are neutered, I’ve now edited my post & removed the 2 paragraphs relevant to Ms / prostate issues, etc.
how very embarrassing!

Just in case, U should be aware that even neutered Ms may mount a F, although they’re unlikely to attempt it before she’s 4-MO. // If her housemates or a nonfamily dog try it on, just separate them quickly & don’t make too much fuss. Some Ms don’t know how to cope with the excitement of meeting another dog, & they will mount both M & F dogs when they 1st meet them - it’s just a default knee-jerk response, they’re aroused & excited, & don’t know how else to express or defuse it.

- terry

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[Kara 1]

I have always let my bitches have one season before neutering as i have known several bitches to be neutered early that have caused incontinence problems soon after ...its a personal choice to make

 

[Chris Mc]

I have always let my bitches have one season before neutering as i have known several bitches to be neutered early that have caused incontinence problems soon after ...its a personal choice to make

I've decided I'll go with the breeder's advice (and yours Kara :0). My thread was more about knowing when females give off female things to dogs, so that my two dogs know Ethel's a female. I still don't know??

We have already bonded with Ethel so she's not a 'we got her for a household re-balance, selfish reason' dog anymore. However, initially we decided to get another female because the lads started fighting terribly after I had to give sleep to my beloved female Eve at 16 1/2 in June 18. Will my male dogs know Ethel is a female before her first season, or when she has her first season?

 

[JudyN]

I would think there's a big difference between knowing that she's female and responding to her in the way they would to an adult female. At the moment, they may know but not care. Possibly her 'puppy licence' might have far more effect on their behaviour towards her up until she approaches her first season. And your first clue may well be when they suddenly decide they really like the way she smells and follow her around with big cow eyes.

Why, in particular, do you ask the question? Are you worried that you/they won't notice her hormones developing and then suddenly BANG, they're playing piggy-back?

A general question that might answer this one, as I'd be interested to know - has anyone noticed their dogs behave differently to male & female puppies? My male can get grumpy with young entire males from around 6 months (depending on the other dog) as their testosterone kicks in but I've not noticed anything different before that.

 

[Chris Mc]

I would think there's a big difference between knowing that she's female and responding to her in the way they would to an adult female. At the moment, they may know but not care. Possibly her 'puppy licence' might have far more effect on their behaviour towards her up until she approaches her first season. And your first clue may well be when they suddenly decide they really like the way she smells and follow her around with big cow eyes.

Why, in particular, do you ask the question? Are you worried that you/they won't notice her hormones developing and then suddenly BANG, they're playing piggy-back?

A general question that might answer this one, as I'd be interested to know - has anyone noticed their dogs behave differently to male & female puppies? My male can get grumpy with young entire males from around 6 months (depending on the other dog) as their testosterone kicks in but I've not noticed anything different before that.

Why, in particular, do you ask the question? - We're not 'brainy' about dogs. We should be, but we're probably too laid back as parents and latch on to particular advice and believe it (which is why I joined the forum so that I can develop a broader, more rounder and expansive 'intelligence'). Unfortunately, we latched on to some advice from a person who said that to restore the pack equilibrium, we needed another female when we lost Eve. This equilibrium hasn't yet been restored, and we were under the impression that once a lady came, it would. As I'm starting to learn more on this site, I'm starting to realise that we're more thick than we thought :0)

 

[merlina]

I think it's so good you were able to add to your little pack for all the right reasons. But dogs are individuals- the boys may relate to Ethel in an entirely different way- because gender is only one part of personality. Maybe Ethel will be totally laid-back or a doggy Ann Widdicombe! That's the fun of dogs though...they always surprise you.

 

[JudyN]

Ah, I see. I'm not an expert but I think relationships in a 'pack' are much more complex than that person seemed to think. It's like a friendship group in humans - if one person drops out and another joins, then the group dynamics can be very different to what they were before, regardless of gender. If you'd added an adult female the dynamics would be different to what they were before.

So I'd simply let them get on with adjusting and see what develops. Are you having problems with how the two males are interacting now?

 

[JudyN]

Cross-posted, @merlina !

 

[Chris Mc]

Ah, I see. I'm not an expert but I think relationships in a 'pack' are much more complex than that person seemed to think. It's like a friendship group in humans - if one person drops out and another joins, then the group dynamics can be very different to what they were before, regardless of gender. If you'd added an adult female the dynamics would be different to what they were before.

So I'd simply let them get on with adjusting and see what develops. Are you having problems with how the two males are interacting now?

One (11 in December and a reactive collie) air-snapped for two weeks when she bothered him. For the last fortnight, more accepting with moments of teeth showing when she wants to play and is too full on. The other (9) was like a depressed king Aslan in the Lion, Witch and Wardrobe, acting wise, turning away, and ignored her completely, yet watching over her, and growling at the 11 year old when he was air snapping too much. Now 'Aslan' is showing his teeth when she's being too playful. I think me and my other half have inadvertently 'forgot' the lads. We don't mean to, but Ethel needs our attention more as pups do, and the lads know our attention has drifted from them (I think). She is being crate trained and has a pen though. Aslan on the right below:

 

[Flobo]

Sometimes I think you just have to trust your instincts, you know your dogs, have faith, you don't have to be an 'expert' to understand what is going on. There is a young addition to your family, there has to be a transitional period for you all.. You sound like a thoughtful, observant and caring couple, I reckon you will work it out just fine.. advice is exactly that, advice, some fits some doesn't. (that doesn't sound grammatically correct but don't know how else to word it!)