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In reply to Becky Summers: Someone will be along shortly to debunk your theories but just wondering - is this perchance an advert for dog crates?
 
Sorry, Becky Summers, but the "pack leader" theory has long been debunked. It has no place in modern dog training and only serves to increase the anxiety that our dogs feel and so interferes with learning.y

It was John Fisher who was responsible tor spreading the theory. It was based on studies done on captive wolves. They were not a family group, just random wolves and they had to compete for food.

More recent studies done on wild dogs and wolves proves that they live as a cooperative. John Fisher published a later book in which he apologised to all the dogs to which he had caused distress by advising people to rank reduce them. He realised he had got the theory wrong when he followed up his cases, a year or so after the initial consultation, only to find that the dog had become withdrawn and depressed. The dogs had no relationship with their owners as they had no understanding of why they were being treated so harshly.

If anyone is basing their thinking on Cesar Milan then be aware that he cancelled his planned tour of the UK after dog professionals voiced their concerns over his outdated methods and dog lovers threatened to demonstrate at each of his venues.

Modern, reward based, methods are much more effective at changing a dog's behaviour.
 
I didn't know Cesar Milan had cancelled his tour @gypsysmum2 -  good to hear the message is getting through. It's just astonishing that such a widely discredited theory won't lie down and die.
 
It was a while back @JoanneF. I assume he has not bothered again. He was invited to attend some seminars on more modern methods of training but I think the money people behind him did not see the point. Such a shame because I think he started out with all the right intentions as a young man.

The reason, in my opinion, that the theory will not lie down and die is because humans identify with it. We like to be "pack leader" and so assume that dogs do too. Most dogs, in contrast, like a nice quiet life leaving all the worry to others in their social group. Why else would they have come to live along side us all those thousands of years ago? All the evidence shows that they were not domesticated by us but chose, after scavenging around our camps, to become our partner during hunting trips and help us herding etc. Makes sense when you look at your pooch lying by the fire :)  Why have all the hassle of leadership when there are better ways to survive?
 
gypsysmum2 said:
Sorry, Becky Summers, but the "pack leader" theory has long been debunked. It has no place in modern dog training and only serves to increase the anxiety that our dogs feel and so interferes with learning.y

It was John Fisher who was responsible tor spreading the theory. It was based on studies done on captive wolves. They were not a family group, just random wolves and they had to compete for food.

More recent studies done on wild dogs and wolves proves that they live as a cooperative. John Fisher published a later book in which he apologised to all the dogs to which he had caused distress by advising people to rank reduce them. He realised he had got the theory wrong when he followed up his cases, a year or so after the initial consultation, only to find that the dog had become withdrawn and depressed. The dogs had no relationship with their owners as they had no understanding of why they were being treated so harshly.

If anyone is basing their thinking on Cesar Milan then be aware that he cancelled his planned tour of the UK after dog professionals voiced their concerns over his outdated methods and dog lovers threatened to demonstrate at each of his venues.

Modern, reward based, methods are much more effective at changing a dog's behaviour.
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Thank you @gypsysmum2 for helping me see the flaw in that theory and also the important point you brought up about  dog behavior (resulting in apathy) due to them not understanding the harsh treatment they received. I will be honest , I was  a Ceaser Milan fan and this brings up a lot of questions that I had earlier considered fact. My intention was to share , kudos on clarifying the why of it
 
I'm afraid if you look online there are some horrific pieces of footage of CM abuse that never made it to the tv programmes. Even the apparent successes are dogs who are shut down rather than whose behaviour have been modified. This is largely because true behaviour modification takes a long long time and makes for pretty poor tv.
 
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The worst piece of footage I saw was of CM dealing with a dog they labelled "The Wolf Dog" or something similar. It was deemed to be aggressive. The footage showed CM walking the dog (a large husky type) along and the dog following him calmly and looking up at him expectantly. He then kicks the dog in the ribs with the side of his foot. The dog swings round and jumps up at him. He raises his arms in an encouraging way and so the dog continues to jump up and mouth at his flailing arms. The camera zooms in to show a torn shirt. CM then hangs the dog by a choke chain. The film cuts. Next picture is of dog lying prone on the floor with a pool of urine around it and blue tongue hanging out. CM is standing proudly over the dog to demonstrate his expertise in handling this dangerous dog. The whole time the dog is jumping up at him it is patently obvious that it is playing. Rough play yes, but nonetheless play. The dog did survive but I would hate to have to handle that dog in the future. Still makes me want to cry for that poor dog. 
 
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