MOVEMENT

[dessie]

Here's another little brain teaser and can of worms for you.

It got me thinking after watchaing the 1000 Guineas. In the 2000 Guineas there were some stunning colts, but, naturally different shapes, sizes and movement. The going was good with a good covering of grass, there had not been much rain and it was drying out all the time. The French colt struggled a bit because he had a very round action more suited to soft going and the lovely daisy-cutting actioned sprinter-build colt just got outpaced because he would have been better on firm ground. But, from what I saw, they all moved well fore and aft.

Different matter in the 1000 Guineas though. The filly that won had the most abysmal front action, dishing really badly at all speeds and yet she absolutely blitzed up the Rowley Mile burning off the opposition very easily and leading from the starting stalls to the winning post. The trainer has had problems keeping her sound, whether because of her movement I don't know, and he is an ex-Vet so is pretty knowledgable, but there is no doubt that she is a very talented filly despite her appalling movement.

So this begs the question, as Whippets are also a galloping breed, do they really need to be sound at the trot. And, by sound, I mean move straight fore and aft without any twiddly bits.

I, personally, am a stickler for good movement and consider it very important. I watch movement in all creatures, including people, but seeing this filly just got me thinking that it might be a good topic for here ................

 

[aslan]

a good example of heart sometimes outweighs confirmation ....?

 

[Lydia]

Interesting point Dessie,but I think Lana hit the nail on the head with with her comment.

When I trained at Talland for my B.H.S.A.I. We had a young horse who dished.......he could also fall over......which was put down to his dishing badly.

It was very unnerving to be riding him,and end up on the floor in a heap with him.You had to sort of un-peel his legs :lol: , before he could stand up again .

Granted he was not a race horse,but his appalling confirmation let him down badly,at all speeds :unsure: .

I suspect that the filly who ran so well,just had sheer guts,determination and luck to have won so well.

Lyd

 

[JAX]

If I have to` parade out `at work (I work at Nottm Greyhound Stadium, usually in the office )or do paddock duty , my `judging ` cap comes on and Im appalled at some of the movement

Cow hocks , plating , toeing in, to name but 3 but run they can and one of the worst ive seen regually wins `open `races .A very `mincey` mover too

So maybe what we see at the trot dosnt mean as much as we thought it did .

 

[Paul Melia]

Walking and galloping actions are more appropriate comparisons as both are four time movements.

Ability lies in a variety of animals and whilst poorly conformed animals may surprise with what they are capable of, it will be when it comes to breeding from them that problems may arise.

 

[Jan Doherty]

I have to agree with Jax that some of the greyhounds I paraded were shocking movers with very poor conformation and yet they could win top class races on the flat and over hurdles.

But what is good movement. It means different things to different people. You only have to read the Dog papers each week where three different critiques will tell you the same dogs movement was good bad and indifferent.

Having been in Horses early on in life and dogs later on I think at 40 something o I am only just seeing good movement. I certainly know which ones of my dogs have good movemnet and who the shockers are, but I keep that bit to myself o

 

[aslan]

The best book I have ever read on movement is "The Dog in Action" by Macdowell Lyon. It is out of print now but if you can get hold of it, it makes so much sense and is easy to understand - many things about movement become suddenly so clear in your mind.

 

[Vicky]

You'd be surprised if you watched some of the racing whippets, some of the worst movers i have ever seen are open class animals.

 

[whipowill]

This is an interesting thread. I totally agree about the "running on heart" idea.

My husband used to hunt & field trial a vizsla dog years ago who was very badly conformed, wide front you (could drive a truck through it), long back and unbalanced with loads of rear angulation. So had way to much to much rear drive offset by his faulty front .

He would hunt until he could run no further, keen as mustard. But then it would take him three or four days to recover. By the time he was six years old his pasterns had given up the ghost and he walked like an old man with bandy legs.

He still wanted to go hunting, but while his spirit was willing his body couldn't handle it so we had to retire him.

So after 26 plus years in vizslas if I'm asked about the vizsla breed I always state that balance is a top priority. As utility gundogs (hunt point retrieve) work at a slow gallop you really need a very well conformed distance athlete.

Could it be the same with whippets. Is balanced movement an absolute necessity even if the dog doesn't have great angulation at either end?

 

[whipowill]

The best book I have ever read on movement is "The Dog in Action" by Macdowell Lyon.  It is out of print now but if you can get hold of it, it makes so much sense and is easy to understand - many things about movement become suddenly so clear in your mind.

undefined

I totally agree about this book Lana. Had a copy, lent it out and it never came back. I don't lend books very often these days. :angry:

 

[aslan]

I read it as a young teenager and the lessons I learned then from it have stood the test of time. I searched for the book for many years and found it only two years ago during my overseas trip. It was in a second hand book stall at a show I went to in California ... I came around the corner and the red cover jumped out at me from at least 12 feet away - I couldn't believe my luck and I paid over $100 AUD for it (in excellent condition mind you) and I am so glad I now have it in my possession.

 

[Jackief]

The book that you are discussing is available online from Amazon.

US List Price: $24.95

UK Equivalent: £14.07

Our Price: £12.66

You Save: £1.41 (10%)

7 Used & New from £10.95

Hope this helps

Jackie

 

[aslan]

Aah... thank you very much Jackie ... I think :unsure:

You did have to let me know that it is readily available at half the price (and less!) :x

 

[whipowill]

I know I'm still a newbie but I am surprised that there hasn't been more posts on this thread. Is there a reason for this or is movement a subject that has already been "done to death" before now?????????????? :unsure:

 

[dawn]

Its OK Whipowill things have just moved on a little lately.

 

[Karen]

I know I'm still a newbie but I am surprised that there hasn't been more posts on this thread.  Is there a reason for this or is movement a subject that has already been  "done to death" before now?????????????? :unsure:

Up to now people have been posting about good movement from a running point of view which of course is absolutly what its all about. The topic hasnt been over done its just from that angle I think we all agree. I also had 4 years with racing greyhounds being walked up and down the kennel all week to see if they were sound enough to run. I can spot a LAME dog in three strides but good movement (w00t) . I think I have posted before, our worse looking, moving, dog won everthing!!

If you looking at SHOW movement and what we are taught is correct, well, either someone isnt teaching properly or some of the class were looking out the window during this lesson

BUT

Unless, after judging you got these people to stand with you and explain why they thought a dog moved very well, I dont see how you can quantify what good movement is.

It is so personal. Some people like a free easy low ground covering movement, which IMO sometimes comes with not so positive coming and going.

Others like strong positive foot fall and the dog to have front and back legs the same width apart coming and going. SOMETIMES this movement belongs to the dog who doesnt extend in front so well so his coming and going looks 'firmer'.

I dislike that wide powerful looking movement as the dog goes away, what I call pooy pants look. Over muscled in rear compared to the front mostly. Yes Im sure they can run, but Im not now on that track.

I think the longer we are in Whippets the more we dislike exagration in any form and should try to take the middle road and look at the whole dog. So if we think a dog is our ideal, and his looks say he should be able to move well but he doesnt? I would put him up, for me, better this than the excellent mover who has a ironing board topline, no length and a head like a bucket! amen

 

[whipowill]

Thanks for your comments Karen, what I was actually wondering was had this been discussed in detail in the past (and had I missed it). Actually agree with a lot of what you said and it is often obvious in the show ring that judges have differing requirements that they want in their winners.

I guess I was actually hoping for wider range of opinions from which to glean as much info as possible. I'm quite willing to listen & learn from those who have much more knowledge & experience in whippets than I do. :mellow: :mellow:

 

[dessie]

It hasn't been discussed as much as height!!! I thought there would have been more comments as well and there were a few odd remarks about movement at the recent NWA show, although nothing overt!!!

I am quite picky about movement, personally, especially profile movement they must have reach and drive but I don't want to see them doing absolutely awful things coming and going either and you see some very bizarre movement in the ring, often with 'faces' on the end of the lead.

We were sat in the ideal position (unintentionally) at NWA and could see the bitches coming down the mat through the middle and along the side of their ring and the dogs coming down the short side of their ring and then going away along the side with profile movement through the middle of the ring. All I can say is that both judges put up some dogs that I wouldn't have considered on movement alone in a million years!!!

 

[Millie]

[  I would put him up, for me, better this than the excellent mover who has a ironing board topline, no length and a head like a bucket!  amen

I'll have to remember not to put my good mover and soundly constucted whip with the ugly mug under you then Karen ! LOL (w00t)

And she's got dew claws as well.......... Shock horror (w00t) (w00t) (w00t)

 

[Karen]

It hasn't been discussed as much as height!!!

I think thats because too high is too high, where as movement good or bad is so much harder for us to quantify collectively.