The Most Dog Friendly Community Online
Join and Discover the Best Things to do with your Dog

Register

Message-in 1st Question

Status
Not open for further replies.
Rob Rixon

Rob Rixon

New Member
Registered
Messages
545
Reaction score
7
Points
0
Question from June Jonigk

I was going to bring up the DNA testing issue again. Technology has moved on so much now. There was so much talk last year about who had dogs that were non peds, and who was suspected of using non peds at stud, that I think the time has come for us all to be testing. It is so inexpensive now at £15 a dog, that I think it should at least be encouraged. I imagine in a few years time it will be commonplace anyway.

I'll throw that in for starters :))

Good Idea June- The £15 could be added to the cost of the passport.

I wonder if the data could be converted to a Bar Code and a copy attached to the passport. We could then use bar code readers check data with the Runner.

Passport file could hold all the data and then when a pup gets registered his/her DNA could be checked against his/her Sire and Dame's DNA. 8)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
i'd like to see the Kennel club bring it in that all litters must be DNA profiled to get registered.

ie: go back to the days when breeders got a seperate reg to register each pup for their KC that way the form could come with a DNA kit and the pup could be DNA profiled & KC registered at the same time.
 
Rob Rixon said:
I wonder if the data could be converted to a Bar Code and a copy attached to the passport.  We could then use bar code readers check data with the Runner.Passport file could hold all the data and then when a pup gets registered his/her DNA could be checked against his/her Sire and Dame's DNA. 8)

Click to expand...
Not sure what you mean Rob. I don't think you could have the actual profile reduced to a bar code. Are you talking about having the dogs microchipped to identify them and then cross checking it with the passport?

The KC already hold the DNA profiles of dogs that are profiled through their scheme so there would be no need for the WCRA to do it too. The KC also do the parentage analysis for £15 a litter if both the parents and the puppies have been profiled so there would be non need for the WCRA to be involved.
 
Sounds good - if the KC already do this DNA testing why don't we use it?

My only problem is can we trust the KC or do we need to control the data?

What I find interesting about WCRA is that 5 gen ped has to be acceptable to the committee. Now what do you think the KC would do if the WCRA went against their ruling on a ped? I think this is the main 'fly in the ointment' regarding RCh being added to KC registration certs. :lol:
 
I actually don't think it would be a bad thing for the WCRA to be involved, and Rob's idea of £15 added to the cost of a passport is a good one.

My new pup "Smidge" is DNA profiled, and parent analysed - but nobody except Steve and I were there when Mighty Mouse was sampled. Say if I and the Brooks's wanted to sneak in a non ped to use as a sire, no one else would ever know. Providing Mighty Mouse and the non ped were not used again - no one would be any the wiser. :- "

But, if a dog was sampled by the WCRA when the passport was applied for (by the seconder), you then have proof that the correct dog had the correct profile. Any talk or problems in the future could be ruled out quite quickly. It would take a while before all passported dogs were profiled, but once they were, you would then have the opportunity to random test parentage when the rumours arise.

People could be asked to volunteer their dogs for profiling at a Champs perhaps, and anyone hoping their dog would be used at stud would surely want to go for it. Indeed anyone who is proud of their dog and it's ancestry would surely want it on record? ;)

We are quite a small community in ped racing, and mostly the same dogs are being used at stud. Most of those owners would be only too happy for their dogs to be profiled, and once they were on record, most racing parentage could be proven if necessary.

It's not an easy thing to bring in, but there must be a way.

My point for the WCRA was also to ask if profiling could be added to the passport, as well as trying to bring in a way of all dogs being profiled.

Food for thought :thumbsup:
 
Whilst I find it horrible that people can't be trusted to be honest, I do feel that DNA testing is a good idea. Personally I believe that it should be carried out by a independent third party, ie a seconder, the WCRA registrar, a vet, those kind of people.
 
:- "

BeeJay said:
Whilst I find it horrible that people can't be trusted to be honest, I do feel that DNA testing is a good idea.  Personally I believe that it should be carried out by a independent third party, ie a seconder, the WCRA registrar, a vet, those kind of people.
Click to expand...
It is horrible that people can't be trusted, most can, I believe.

Testing elimantes doubt. Well said Beejay :thumbsup:

Testing eliminates doubt in many areas, genetics is one area, illegal substances another :- " I refer to comments made by certain parties last year............

I actually am not that bothered what people feel the need to do to win, but I acknowledge that others do.

As a unit, we enjoy some really pleasant club racing in great company, the Opens, hosted by some fabulous clubs are a wonderful opportunity to socialise with like-minded folk. The out-comes are not that important, if we do well great, if we don't, it doesn't matter, we've enjoyed a day out with friends
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If there were non peds competing on the pedigree open circuit, they would beat everything out of sight. A few years ago I took my 24lb racing champion(who had won the top ten the previous year) to Fordingbridge for a club meeting. We got beaten by a 17lb dog off scratch.

For some reason, some people just can't accept that their dog could possibly be beaten by another pedigree dog. So that is why there are always certain people whinging and whining that dogs are either non peds or on some sort of performance enhancing drugs. There are a number of factors that make successful racing dogs such as: breeding, diet, training and good preparation. If you haven't got all of these then you won't be competitive. I have always thought it is best to try and get the very best out of your own dog by trying diferent training methods and diet etc rather than trying to look for negatives regarding other peoples dogs. When your dog has hit good form, remember what you had done to achieve this. If your dog is not performing, then try to find out why(it's often an injury).

There are always going to be fast dogs, average dogs and slow dogs. It is nobodys divine right to have a fast dog. All you can do is get the very best out of your particular dog. The fact is, that there are some people who can consistently do this year after year with dog after dog.

Non peds are so much faster that they would be unbeatable and would be untouchable in competitions like the top ten. So, if anyone asked me if I thought DNA testing was neccessary, I would say its a waste of time.
 
:( I'll be the fly in the ointment then! I'm SICK TO DEATH of being told what I can and can't do, how I can do it, when I can do it and even IF I can do it!! So do I want an uneconomical £15.00 added to the cost of a passport - a document which means diddly-squat to anyone NOT associated with pedigree whippet racing? Hole in one, no I do not.

Why anyone would consider DNA profiles for EVERY dog, irrespective of whether or not they are going to be used in a breeding programme is beyond me. The only dogs that need said profiles are the breeding pair. So, when you breed from your darling bitch or dog, then, and only then, is it 'prudent' to take the DNA profile of both the sire and the dam. Taking profiles for every pup is totally unnecessary as the majority of them will never be used in any breeding programme thus you have wasted your £15.00, used up storage space storing data which will remain unused and wasted even more paper entering this totally irrelevant information into an unofficial document which means nothing to the dog world (aka KC). It is when the breeding progeny from THAT litter are used in breeding programmes that you again take the DNA profile of that sire and dam for reference purposes. So if I then come along and say your dog (who happens to be the off spring of the pair 'DNAd' after breeding) is a non-ped, not only can you take me to court, you can prove in court that your dog does actually belong to dog a and bitch b and claim shed-loads of money from me in the process!!

 

Until the KC in their wisdom decide that all dogs and bitches used in breeding programmes must have their DNA profile taken and lodged with them I can see no reason for any other august body to jump on any bandwagon ahead of them. At least, so far in this debate I have not seen any lucid, reasonable rationale in support of the question; nor any reasonable, possible implementation of this profile only comments which could lead one to speculate down very unpleasant pathways. As we are only too aware, to legislate effectively it has to be workable as well as possible.
 
Good post Rob :thumbsup:

I think Carmel is right in that only dogs that are bred from need to be profiled at the moment as far as racing goes. If it was done as a matter of routine then it would save people feeling as if they were being singled out. Of course if there is a dispute about the puppies, they are going to feel like that anyway. The KC have a different agenda though and it might be a good idea from their point of view if every puppy registered with them could be proven to be of the correct parentage.
 
Can DNA profiles also be used for - tracing

Hereditary Diseases

Faults

etc ?
 
Hi Rob

Yes they can be useful and are. When you send in your samples you tick the box to say you're happy for the samples to be used for research into diseases, and breed specific problems.

Also once your dogs profile is on record, you could prove ownership of that dog if necessary too :thumbsup:
 
Thanks June for the info

I think this may be the way forward.

Are there any problems that we haven't discussed?

I think this should well be pushed by WC - good point for the AGM?

If you have't got a problem with your breeding you would be happy for the DNA profile - the way I see it! :lol:
 
The Kennel Club do not envisage that every pedigree dog, irrespective of breed, will have it's DNA profile registered - due to the reasons I gave, storage of the data and implementation. What the KC have recommended thus far is that breeding pairs are profiled. At least that was their line of thinking when I spoke with them late last summer about this issue.

As far as I can determine from the research point of view, the identification of disease etc is at a lower level than the research on the human! So whilst one day, all things might be possible, at the present time, and given the lack of research funding it is a long way away indeed. And if one considers the news this week that science research through universities has had its government funded budget cut what hope is there? Now, were some high profile research body to approach the KC/WCRA with a proposal for DNA profiling racing whippets, and were prepared to cover the cost, that would be a reason to profile every racing whippet :)) I would find that acceptable as the data collection would be implemented correctly, the date collated correctly, analysed and interpreted and the results subjected to rigorous academic scrutiny by the scientific community.

So what we could do is find a research team who would like to use our dogs. :)) :))
 
Smiffy@VeronnaV said:
The Kennel Club do not envisage that every pedigree dog, irrespective of breed, will have it's DNA profile registered - due to the reasons I gave, storage of the data and implementation.  What the KC have recommended thus far is that breeding pairs are profiled.  At least that was their line of thinking when I spoke with them late last summer about this issue. 
At least if we DNA'd breeding pairs it would be a start - parentage analysis could then only need to be provided if there are any doubts.  This would cause so much bad feeling though, as people/dogs would be singled out - and the people who queried the breeding would also come in for some flack

So whilst one day, all things might be possible, at the present time, and given the lack of research funding it is a long way away indeed. And if one considers the news this week that science research through universities has had its government funded budget cut what hope is there?  Now, were some high profile research body to approach the KC/WCRA with a proposal for DNA profiling racing whippets, and were prepared to cover the cost, that would be a reason to profile every racing whippet :))   I would find that acceptable as the data collection would be implemented correctly, the date collated correctly, analysed and interpreted and the results subjected to rigorous academic scrutiny by the scientific community. 

So what we could do is find a research team who would like to use our dogs.  :))   :))

That would be great if it happened, but I for one don't worry about the KC's lack of budget - they must be minted :lol:   They take in money for everything you can think of, but I see very little of what they're paying it out on - Big Wigs fat pay cheques I reckon.  Does anyone know what the KC spend any money on?

Click to expand...
 
The whole idea of the DNA profile date base is to build up a base of information on breeding pairs - and that information to be held on file for times of dispute as well as research. People may make use of this facility should they wish to, but NOT making use of this service does not mean that they have something to hide. We should be sure that we instigate a particular rule for the right reasons, not just because we can and certainly not because some of us think we should - but because by introducing a particular rule it will be to the benefit of whippet breeding. So far, the argument has not persuaded me that parting with my £15.00 has any benefit! Indeed, your comments about unfortunate consequences should a query arise has shot the argument in the foot really simply because DNA profiles will not stop the nasty, snide comments of some about the breeding of particularly unpopular/ugly/fast/or all of the aforementioned/ whippets. All it will do is make the shareholders of some DNA lab richer. (This is where we all rush off and buy shares in DNA labs people :thumbsup: )

If an owner feels the need to go ahead and spend the money on a DNA profile, then all well and good and in the long term it may have some historical, scientific interest and use. But I do not see that some owners making use of the service, and other owners who chose not to should in any detrimental way reflect upon the person not opting for the same 'righteous' path - people must be free to do as they see fit when it does not impinge upon the well being of others. It may be that most will opt to profile their breeding stock, in which case legislating for this is unnecessary. As long as the person selling the pup does not pass the cost onto me, the punter, I don't mind what they do because at the moment I can see no justifiable reason for blanket DNA profiling. :cheers:
 
You are only racing your dogs for goodness sake. its simply not worth the man hours. You would be better off using the time wasted DNA profiling your dogs doing some work for a needy dogs charity and then, next time you race your dogs, lighten up and have some fun... :wacko:
 
The question of whether DNA profiles of all whippets would help in identifying hereditary diseases and faults is interesting. I wonder if it would highlight a fault regarding the amount of cryptorcid dogs in pedigree racing now. We don't need DNA to tell us this but, even though everyone knows it is a fault, these dogs are still being used by people desperate to get a fast dog regardless of the consequences. I think that even if another fault was identified, it wouldn't stop people from breeding from them if they were fast.

Going back to the original question of this debate regarding there being rumours about the breeding of some dogs. If anyone does believe that there are non peds competing in pedigree racing, I wonder if anyone has approached the WCRA to express their concerns and point out that the registrar must have mistakenly issued a passport.
 
Smiffy@VeronnaV said:
Now, were some high profile research body to approach the KC/WCRA with a proposal for DNA profiling racing whippets, and were prepared to cover the cost, that would be a reason to profile every racing whippet :))    I would find that acceptable as the data collection would be implemented correctly, the date collated correctly, analysed and interpreted and the results subjected to rigorous academic scrutiny by the scientific community. 
So what we could do is find a research team who would like to use our dogs.   :))   :))

Click to expand...
How much money are you prepare to put up to fund this research? I like your style - I would find that acceptable as the data collection would be implemented correctly, the date collated correctly, analysed and interpreted and the results subjected to rigorous academic scrutiny by the scientific community. - wishful thinking!! :lol:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top