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Line Breeding

i wouldnt personaly do this myself ,although im no breeder ,but do plan on having one litter off my tia ,but would never dream of using her father or brother come to that :blink: althou i see from past post you have linned you bitch to her father shurley this is not a good thing to do :blink: i mean we wouldnt as humans be having babies with father and daught or brother and sister would we (well not unless your some twisted perv ) :unsure:
 
nicky12 said:
i wouldnt personaly do this myself ,although im no breeder ,but do plan on having one litter off my tia ,but would never dream of using her father or brother come to that  :blink: althou i see from past post you have linned you bitch to her father shurley this is not a good thing to do  :blink: i mean we wouldnt as humans be having babies with father and daught or brother and sister would we (well not unless your some twisted perv ) :unsure:
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i agree with nicky on this one, plenty suitible stud dogs, to use why use the father, im pretty sure its this sort of breeding that has messed up the gsd's and the king charles's.

i deffinatly would not be happy about getting a pup from a line bread bitch :(
 
well i dont think line breeding is a problem providing it is done responsibly mating its dog with either of its parents or grandparents for me is a definate no no :(

but done along the same line with different heritage for me would be ok after all you could use the same kennel but a different dog

katie i bet if you look far enough back in ruby and stars pedigree you will probably see a lot of line breeding theres nothing wrong providing its done with the dogs health and welfare in mind first :thumbsup:
 
I would never consider a father/daughter or mother/son mating .....IMO its much too close, and although I know people will say matings like this enhance and double up the good points of the line and stamp a "type", on the other hand it will also double up the bad points and in that line the gene pool will be dramatically decreased causing even more problems .....This kind of breeding is a quick fix IMO so people know virtually what they'll be getting....... An out cross results in a mixed bag of puppies, but in theory as you'll be widening that lines genes they should be healthier though not all be the same type ......
 
kerrie.picolo@btinternet.com said:
what should we do as responsable breeders stay on our breeding lines or do outcrosses let me know your views
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I mostly line bred Basset Hounds and Pointers and outcrossed ocassionally, but always bred type to type but my bitch lines in both breeds were strong. I guess you need to know how close you can go... I never did Parent to Offspring or litter mates nor same pedigree/s.... but I bred to common ancestry and would try and keep two lines running on one bitch/dog in a pedigree. To line breed you must know which dogs are prepotent and which carry hereditary problems Avoid the latter or don't double up on them.... you may need their input to improve or retain other qualities, but you must be careful.

I think we should always remember that the canine is a lower form of life and should not be confused with human life that is far more complex

I am not experienced with Whippet breeding but I hear contradictory comment on line breeding this breed..... many say they don't always breed to type..... I don't know.... I do look at the Whippets I have in my kennel and can easily recognise family commonalities and align with others of their family who are owned and bred on by others. I guess I have two families, both linked in their bitch line but very different in the dog line.... the dog line is outcrossed in both families.

A great topic for discussion
 
this looks like it will be an interesting topic ,i will look at my dogs pedigrees later and see what sort of breeding has occured along the way ,so most of you think that line breeding from very close relatives is a no no ,but further down the line is ok then ?how far back is safe thou ? :)
 
chakrata said:
kerrie.picolo@btinternet.com said:
what should we do as responsable breeders stay on our breeding lines or do outcrosses let me know your views
Click to expand...
I mostly line bred Basset Hounds and Pointers and outcrossed ocassionally, but always bred type to type but my bitch lines in both breeds were strong. I guess you need to know how close you can go... I never did Parent to Offspring or litter mates nor same pedigree/s.... but I bred to common ancestry and would try and keep two lines running on one bitch/dog in a pedigree. To line breed you must know which dogs are prepotent and which carry hereditary problems Avoid the latter or don't double up on them.... you may need their input to improve or retain other qualities, but you must be careful.

[SIZE=21pt]I think we should always remember that the canine is a lower form of life [/SIZE]and should not be confused with human life that is far more complex

I am not experienced with Whippet breeding but I hear contradictory comment on line breeding this breed..... many say they don't always breed to type..... I don't know.... I do look at the Whippets I have in my kennel and can easily recognise family commonalities and align with others of their family who are owned and bred on by others. I guess I have two families, both linked in their bitch line but very different in the dog line.... the dog line is outcrossed in both families.

A great topic for discussion

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not in my house its not ther right up ther with my kids :D
 
affieluver said:
well i dont think line breeding is a problem providing it is done responsibly mating its dog with either of its parents or grandparents for me is a definate no no  :(
but done along the same line with different heritage for me would be ok after all you could use the same kennel but a different dog

katie i bet if you look far enough back in ruby and stars pedigree you will probably see a lot of line breeding theres nothing wrong providing its done with the dogs health and welfare in mind first :thumbsup:

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kelly, i can quite believe if you go through all pedigrees there is someone somewhere but that cant be helped now, i mean i wouldnt have a pup from a derect line mating.

i just dont think their is any need to do father or grandfather/ daughter matings. :( :(
 
nicky12 said:
chakrata said:
kerrie.picolo@btinternet.com said:
what should we do as responsable breeders stay on our breeding lines or do outcrosses let me know your views
Click to expand...
I mostly line bred Basset Hounds and Pointers and outcrossed ocassionally, but always bred type to type but my bitch lines in both breeds were strong. I guess you need to know how close you can go... I never did Parent to Offspring or litter mates nor same pedigree/s.... but I bred to common ancestry and would try and keep two lines running on one bitch/dog in a pedigree. To line breed you must know which dogs are prepotent and which carry hereditary problems Avoid the latter or don't double up on them.... you may need their input to improve or retain other qualities, but you must be careful.

[SIZE=21pt]I think we should always remember that the canine is a lower form of life [/SIZE]and should not be confused with human life that is far more complex

I am not experienced with Whippet breeding but I hear contradictory comment on line breeding this breed..... many say they don't always breed to type..... I don't know.... I do look at the Whippets I have in my kennel and can easily recognise family commonalities and align with others of their family who are owned and bred on by others. I guess I have two families, both linked in their bitch line but very different in the dog line.... the dog line is outcrossed in both families.

A great topic for discussion

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not in my house its not ther right up ther with my kids :D
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ruby and star agree with you nicky, they say they are level with the kids if not higher (yeah right),

at this min right now ruby and star are on the sofa and zoe and kyle are on the floor :- " :oops:
 
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k4tie-d said:
affieluver said:
well i dont think line breeding is a problem providing it is done responsibly mating its dog with either of its parents or grandparents for me is a definate no no  :(
but done along the same line with different heritage for me would be ok after all you could use the same kennel but a different dog

katie i bet if you look far enough back in ruby and stars pedigree you will probably see a lot of line breeding theres nothing wrong providing its done with the dogs health and welfare in mind first :thumbsup:

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kelly, i can quite believe if you go through all pedigrees there is someone somewhere but that cant be helped now, i mean i wouldnt have a pup from a derect line mating.

i just dont think their is any need to do father or grandfather/ daughter matings. :( :(

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see what you mean katie i thought you meant you wouldnt have anything related at all :lol:
 
chakrata said:
I think we should always remember that the canine is a lower form of life and should not be confused with human life that is far more complex
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What a completely scientifically uninformed remark. The heredity of health conditions that have a complex genetic cause is actually very similar in most mammals.

Regarding the original question, it's very difficult to identify what constitutes an effective outcross, given that so many individuals go back to very limited pools of ancestors at various points in the past.
 
Didn't Natalia give an exceptionally good, clear paper on exactly this question at the Convention (maybe not the right name?) in Sweden?

I do have a copy of it, but not sure it's legal to post it - and it is rather long. But perhaps there's an on-line copy somewhere...?

(Natalia's a population geneticist with a particular interest in dog population genetics and a specific interest in whippets who was invited to give a paper on in-breeding and health)

I can summarise it if people want

ms
 
She did; it is excellent and certainly worth everybody reading. :thumbsup:
 
Yes a great paper - too much to post here...

she does state that 'Close inbreeding like father-daughter, son-mother, full siblings should be reserved for test matings only, or for very rare occasions when you need to 'dig up' a single recessive gene and it is the only option. If you want to mate half siblings eg by the same male, ensure the mothers are unrelated as possible.

I do like the bit about 'considering dogs that are not aorund much any more (eg not being shown/raced) - mating to an elderly dog is a good thing as you can be sure he is fit, in good condition, without genetic diseases with a late onset'

'Don't forget about unrelated lines - losing them is irrepairable'

Also an interesting point is that if every breeders tries to outcross as much as possible, this can only be continues for a limited time as there are too few seperate lines to continually outcross as eventually every dog will be a combination of lines existing before

anyway those are a few small points in a great paper
 
Eceni said:
Didn't Natalia give an exceptionally good, clear paper on exactly this question at the Convention (maybe not the right name?) in Sweden?
I do have a copy of it, but not sure it's legal to post it - and it is rather long.  But perhaps there's an on-line copy somewhere...?

(Natalia's a population geneticist with a particular interest in dog population genetics and a specific interest in whippets who was invited to give a paper on in-breeding and health)

I can summarise it if people want

ms

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hi Manda, I can send anyone a copy by email, i have sent lots out already on the other forum and i have Natalias blessing, she is very pleased to help

simply pm me with your email address and i will send it to anyone interested

jan
 
With the very wide selection of Whippets, I don't think there is a need to use the parent to get puppies.
 
Line breeding is inbreeding end of

A coefficient of inbreeding calculates the probability of the pair of genes (alleles) passed from each parent being the same.

It is very complex and is not as simple as saying close inbreeding is unacceptable and line breeding is ok as it does rather depend on how tightly bred the individuals are.

Any outcross will immediately reduce the inbreeding coefficient to 0 as the probability that the genes passed from each parent to the offspring being the same is 0

This is why knowing the inbreeding coefficient of your own breeding stock as well as that of the dog you are using enables you to consider this along with other aspects of the proposed mating.
 
jayp said:
Line breeding is inbreeding end of

A coefficient of inbreeding calculates the probability of  the pair of genes (alleles) passed from each parent being the same.

It is very complex and is not as simple as saying close inbreeding is unacceptable and line breeding is ok as it does rather depend on how tightly bred the individuals are.

Any outcross will immediately reduce the inbreeding coefficient to 0  as the probability that the genes passed from each parent to the offspring being the same is 0

This is why knowing the inbreeding coefficient of your own breeding stock as well as that of the dog you are using enables you to consider this along with other aspects of the proposed mating.

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It is a shame there is not an easy bit of software that will help you calculate the coefficient. If it was part of the Whippet Archives it would be even better :D
 
~JO~ said:
jayp said:
Line breeding is inbreeding end of

A coefficient of inbreeding calculates the probability of  the pair of genes (alleles) passed from each parent being the same.

It is very complex and is not as simple as saying close inbreeding is unacceptable and line breeding is ok as it does rather depend on how tightly bred the individuals are.

Any outcross will immediately reduce the inbreeding coefficient to 0  as the probability that the genes passed from each parent to the offspring being the same is 0

This is why knowing the inbreeding coefficient of your own breeding stock as well as that of the dog you are using enables you to consider this along with other aspects of the proposed mating.

Click to expand...
It is a shame there is not an easy bit of software that will help you calculate the coefficient. If it was part of the Whippet Archives it would be even better :D

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There is, Its Pedigree Software Breeders Assistant, the coefficient software is called Fspeed and there is a free download

I agree with you as it takes ages to put in the data but is worth it, to combine with the archives database would be brilliant

The Swedish KC provide this service to breeders
 
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