Junior delinquent!

[Robins mum]

They dont just plonk them somewhere it would irresponsible of them to just rehome him to a home with the problems there are ...they have to find a foster place and asses him and see if the problem actually lies with Robin or you ...
I have taken in numerous sighthounds deemed awful and dangerous by previous owners to not be that bad in a different environment...
Did you contact the lady I gave you her email ...

Of course I did! But my descision was to persist because a, I love my dog! b, I want to sort this out! c, they wanted me to relinquish the dog completely - not a chance!

I have just had a lovely chat with the rehomer at the Northern Borzois - finally got hold of her! It was a really helpful conversation and I am feeling more confident now and will give it a go! Plus she has a litter brother to Robin so understands the challenges of this lot! I am off to the shops again! Will keep you updated in a few weeks! Thanks for your help!

 

[carl99]

... I had Robin on a lead!.....

the other dog was off-leash and came up to your leashed dog on a towpath? if things get ugly it's their fault isn't it? Why kick out at your dog? crazy! he should have grabbed his own dog.. or did I miss something..

golden retriever entire that Robin bounced on after a few minutes of their fiddling about who was gonna walk where, the one person walking back saying she was frightened, and the man being non compliant with my begging request to please move his dog further back and turn his head away which was what I was doing (or trying to do) with Robin, after a few minutes I made the wrong decision to say right I will walk over here then, Robin just spontaneously combusted and the poor bloke was trying to shove Robin away with his feet Robin was moving so fast I could not get him back for what seemed like a lifetime but in reality was probably only a few seconds, then the bloke said Robin had bitten him!

I couldn't really understand what happened from this description sorry

 

[Feverfew]

Of course I did! But my descision was to persist because a, I love my dog! b, I want to sort this out! c, they wanted me to relinquish the dog completely - not a chance!

I have just had a lovely chat with the rehomer at the Northern Borzois - finally got hold of her! It was a really helpful conversation and I am feeling more confident now and will give it a go! Plus she has a litter brother to Robin so understands the challenges of this lot! I am off to the shops again! Will keep you updated in a few weeks! Thanks for your help!

I certainly hope you get some help from the Borzoi club.
I have found your descriptions confusing. You say in your opening post 'Recall is none existent except when in the home', yet a few posts later you say his recall is 'spot on for the majority of times' - so which is it? And in terms of on or off lead, it seems from what you say you gave insufficient influence or control over him whether he is on the lead or off it (otherwise Robin would not be in a position to intimidate other dogs).

Since you mentioned that you are looking for new suggestions, e.g. with regard to hormonal influence, I do have two suggestions for you to consider.

The first is in regard to hormones. While Robin might be slightly more sensitive at this time of year as a result of female animals coming into heat around this time, that is not the reason for his behaviour. All dogs have hormones and many (not all) entire males are aroused by the scent of a bitch in season. But what you have is very ingrained behaviour in a young adult dog who I would guess is probably going to require quite a lot of work to rehabilitate, because he has been practising it for a long time and it works for him, even if ge only does it for a small percentage of the time.

The other thing you mention is that Robin has 'doggy friends' that he meets up with. My advice is to look very closely and impartially at what is happening at these meetings, because if Robin is not very skilled at playing, he may be practising his intimidatory behaviour on his 'friends'. Alternatively, he may be being bullied himself at these meetings which has led to a 'get in first' mentality.

As a general guide, if these meetings involve a lot of young dogs, if there is a lot of barging and mounting, if chase games are one-sided (in the sense that the same dogs are chaser and chasee), then you may have one of the explanations for Robin's behaviour towards unfamiliar dogs.

I often say to my clients that socialisation is not a contact sport. I do not like to see dogs rough-housing with very vigorous chasing and physical contact (although I meet a lot of owners who think it is amusing and fun to watch). Rough-housing is not, in my opinion, how dogs would choose to socialise if they were left to their own devices instead of being wound up and put under pressure to perform in certain ways.

Dogs that are well adapted, confident and social are far more likely to want to share sniffs, roll in parallel, walk side by side and basically 'have a conversation' with their friends. It is a huge privilege to witness dogs who do this.

If the sort of 'play' Robin is engaged in is very physical and exciting, with nips, barks and the occasional squeal, my advice would be to put an end to all that and ideally to find an older, skilful dog who has been around for a bit for him to walk with - and I do mean walk, not running. Watching and spending time with a skilful older dog is one of the best ways for a giddy young dog to learn how to manage social situations without getting into conflict. Dogs are often far better teachers than we are.

Hopefully, in time, if Robin were able to absorb and acquire those skills, he could pass them on to other dogs, as my own generations of dogs have done for each other. But the other big question is whether you are the right person to take that forward, and that is something only you can decide.

 

[Robins mum]

the other dog was off-leash and came up to your leashed dog on a towpath? if things get ugly it's their fault isn't it? Why kick out at your dog? crazy! he should have grabbed his own dog.. or did I miss something..

I couldn't really understand what happened from this description sorry

It's a long story, if you are interested I will try to explain better, but really not worth another thought! No body died and all is in hand thanks

 

[Robins mum]

I certainly hope you get some help from the Borzoi club.
I have found your descriptions confusing. You say in your opening post 'Recall is none existent except when in the home', yet a few posts later you say his recall is 'spot on for the majority of times' - so which is it? And in terms of on or off lead, it seems from what you say you gave insufficient influence or control over him whether he is on the lead or off it (otherwise Robin would not be in a position to intimidate other dogs).

Since you mentioned that you are looking for new suggestions, e.g. with regard to hormonal influence, I do have two suggestions for you to consider.

The first is in regard to hormones. While Robin might be slightly more sensitive at this time of year as a result of female animals coming into heat around this time, that is not the reason for his behaviour. All dogs have hormones and many (not all) entire males are aroused by the scent of a bitch in season. But what you have is very ingrained behaviour in a young adult dog who I would guess is probably going to require quite a lot of work to rehabilitate, because he has been practising it for a long time and it works for him, even if ge only does it for a small percentage of the time.

The other thing you mention is that Robin has 'doggy friends' that he meets up with. My advice is to look very closely and impartially at what is happening at these meetings, because if Robin is not very skilled at playing, he may be practising his intimidatory behaviour on his 'friends'. Alternatively, he may be being bullied himself at these meetings which has led to a 'get in first' mentality.

As a general guide, if these meetings involve a lot of young dogs, if there is a lot of barging and mounting, if chase games are one-sided (in the sense that the same dogs are chaser and chasee), then you may have one of the explanations for Robin's behaviour towards unfamiliar dogs.

I often say to my clients that socialisation is not a contact sport. I do not like to see dogs rough-housing with very vigorous chasing and physical contact (although I meet a lot of owners who think it is amusing and fun to watch). Rough-housing is not, in my opinion, how dogs would choose to socialise if they were left to their own devices instead of being wound up and put under pressure to perform in certain ways.

Dogs that are well adapted, confident and social are far more likely to want to share sniffs, roll in parallel, walk side by side and basically 'have a conversation' with their friends. It is a huge privilege to witness dogs who do this.

If the sort of 'play' Robin is engaged in is very physical and exciting, with nips, barks and the occasional squeal, my advice would be to put an end to all that and ideally to find an older, skilful dog who has been around for a bit for him to walk with - and I do mean walk, not running. Watching and spending time with a skilful older dog is one of the best ways for a giddy young dog to learn how to manage social situations without getting into conflict. Dogs are often far better teachers than we are.

Hopefully, in time, if Robin were able to absorb and acquire those skills, he could pass them on to other dogs, as my own generations of dogs have done for each other. But the other big question is whether you are the right person to take that forward, and that is something only you can decide.

Feverfew, I really thank you for your thoughts and comments! I totally agree with them! I will not allow Robin to play with a dog who is rough, showing any signs of bullying or 'top-manship! If they do not take it in turns to chase I divert Robin and put him back on the lead. Robin NEVER has - NOT ONCE nipped, nor bullied another dog NOT ONCE! Please, please, do not lump me with all the normal numpties that you have to deal with! I would say that a fair few of dog owners should have lessons before they even think of owning a dog! I'm here on this site because I know there are some REALLY WISE people here who have had a lot of experience and knowledge that is priceless! I'm here to learn and to be the best momma for Robin that I can be!

 

[carl99]

look very closely and impartially at what is happening at these meetings, because if Robin is not very skilled at playing, he may be practising his intimidatory behaviour on his 'friends'. Alternatively, he may be being bullied himself at these meetings which has led to a 'get in first' mentality...

Nicely put, sounds like a good idea to supervise interactions like that

 

[carl99]

It's a long story, if you are interested I will try to explain better, but really not worth another thought! No body died and all is in hand thanks

Yeah it's interesting to know the nature of the hairy interaction you had, I couldn't tell whether the other dog was off-lead for example..

 

[Feverfew]

Thanks, I'm glad it was helpful. I only add that it's important to be absolutely unbiased when doing your observations, because dogs are extremely subtle in the way that they communicate with others.

My much-loved Lurcher, sadly no longer with me, was an expert space invader and he knew to a whisker where he could get between an owner and their dog. He would then keep them apart - all the time looking as if butter wouldn't melt in his mouth - what, me? It was some of the most scrupulous and skilful intimidation I have ever seen in a dog.

On the positive side, he was very, very skilfil at splitting dogs up if they were facing up to each other, and certainly fast enough to scarper if things got too hot. But he could definitely be a bit of a bully, and he taught me a lot about how subtle that can be. He actually learned a lot from my current, younger, Carpathian Shepherd, who, although nervous, is a really low-key communicator and very polite indeed. A real diplomat, bless him.

 

[Robins mum]

Yeah it's interesting to know the nature of the hairy interaction you had, I couldn't tell whether the other dog was off-lead for example..

Yes, the other dog was very happily walking along the towpath off lead - I had Robin On his lead already ( I have 2 leads on him always! slip lead and two fastener chest and back lead) The man saw us and kindly put his dog on a lead I still told him that my dog was NOT alright and will bounce at his dog - although he is not viscious. He kept saying it is alright and walking closer - I could sense something was stirring in Robin, sat him down and stood in front of him while trying to ask the man to stop and let me move to a wider part of the pathway for passing - well typical! he knew better than me! So we passed reasonably well, but then the mans companion was holding back several metres saying she was frightened! so a 2 minute back forth with her and the man, my poor Robin was getting more and more excited! I said to the man I would walk either down or up the path but I need to MOVE! - too late! Robin leapt at the poor dog (playfully) then basically the man (and yes I CAN understand!) shouted and started kicking wildly at my poor Robin who was doing what is inate in the breed of circling the 'prey' and snapping teeth to keep the 'prey' where it is (holding without harming so the humans can capture the wolf to keep it for teaching the younger Borzois how to specifically hunt and capture without harming wolves, or to kill for their own food - it is incredible to watch, and to think all these years later it is STILL in the breed to do this! So in the mess I managed to get Robins lead back in my hands and haul him away walking away the man said ' Your dog bit me!' but never showed me anything and I said he didn't bite you! well that was it , really sad and should have not occurred.

 

[JoanneF]

I'm confused. You had already

passed reasonably well,

why didn't you just keep going? And why was his companion scared at this stage?

circling the 'prey' and snapping teeth to keep the 'prey'

in the mess I managed to get Robins lead back in my hands

So had you let go?

playfully

I can see why that sort of behaviour might not be seen as ”playful”.

 

[Feverfew]

I think whatever the wrongs and rights, the lesson is surely to walk with Robin where you have space to walk in a wide arch when you encounter another dog, which is the sort of thing an experienced dog would do.

Walking on any narrow path without escape routes is not giving either dog a chance to manage the situation in a sensible way. Putting a dog in a sit, hanging on and hoping for the best is not a workable solution for most dogs, let alone this one.

There is also the factor of someone being frightened of your dog, and not being able to put space between her and your dog.

So the choice of environment is absolutely fundamental. You need to walk him where you can divert, step behind a natural barrier and put space between Robin and other dogs.

 

[carl99]

.. I still told him that my dog was NOT alright and will bounce at his dog - although he is not viscious. He kept saying it is alright and walking closer - I could sense something was stirring in Robin, sat him down and stood in front of him while trying to ask the man to stop and let me move to a wider part of the pathway for passing - well typical! he knew better than me! So we passed reasonably well, but then the mans companion was holding back several metres saying she was frightened! so a 2 minute back forth with her and the man, my poor Robin was getting more and more excited! I said to the man I would walk either down or up the path but I need to MOVE! - too late! Robin leapt at the poor dog (playfully) then basically the man (and yes I CAN understand!) shouted and started kicking wildly at my poor Robin .....

Good morning, thanks for that RM it was a lot clearer

As FF has already mentioned, whether it was theirs or your failings, be mindful of what paths you take! So I'll just add, if it helps in emergency, handling a dog that is losing its mind is a lot to do with technique (a level of strength needed of course) and your double-clipped connection to lead, for example, may not be good enough in that situation e.g. maybe hunkering down and holding the handle on a good harness would have got you through? Again, I only mean as a last resort

 

[Feverfew]

I'm confused. You had already why didn't you just keep going? And why was his companion scared at this stage?


So had you let go?

I can see why that sort of behaviour might not be seen as ”playful”.

Yes absolutely agree - circling and snapping is not play under any circumstances, even between dogs who are friends. It is intimidating behaviour, and I think the rose-coloured spectacles need to come off in terms of how RM sees Robin's behaviour around other dogs.

 

[Robins mum]

I'm confused. You had already why didn't you just keep going? And why was his companion scared at this stage?


So had you let go?

I can see why that sort of behaviour might not be seen as ”playful”.

There was NO reason for his companion to be scared of Robin she is scared of ALL dogs and Robin is big. She was not helping the situation, so that was why I did not just walk on The dog was behind us and the girl was in front 50 metres her companion calling her to come all is fine (it was at the beginning!) She was trying to get off the towpath (there was STILL no reason to do this initially) And really the reason I posted all the history was for carl99!

 

[Feverfew]

There was NO reason for his companion to be scared of Robin she is scared of ALL dogs and Robin is big. She was not helping the situation, so that was why I did not just walk on The dog was behind us and the girl was in front 50 metres her companion calling her to come all is fine (it was at the beginning!) She was trying to get off the towpath (there was STILL no reason to do this initially) And really the reason I posted all the history was for carl99!

If someone is scared of your dog, they are 100% entitled to feel that way. As established in my previous post, people who have been injured or attacked by a dog have every reason and justification to be fearful. It's absolutely unacceptable for a dog owner to criticise someone who is afraid of their dog or to say that they should not feel that way.
It's your duty as a dog owner to make every effort - and I mean effectively, not leaving it to chance - to make sure no one is ever put in fear by your dog, end of.

 

[JoanneF]

And really the reason I posted all the history was for carl99!

Maybe so, but I guess, in a forum environment, we don't get to pick and choose who reads and replies to our posts.

Anyway, I'm struggling to visualise how this played out. If you were past I still don't understand how Robin could have been circling and snapping, and how you got the lead 'back in your hands' - unless Robin had somehow got loose.

If not, and the woman was fifty metres away, that still would have allowed you a gap of up to 25 metres between Robin and the dog; and Robin and the woman. At least far enough from the dog not to be circling it.

And, all that being the case - a large, maybe loose dog, leaping, circling and snapping is scary. Whether that's at 'a few' metres or fifty.

 

[Robins mum]

If someone is scared of your dog, they are 100% entitled to feel that way. As established in my previous post, people who have been injured or attacked by a dog have every reason and justification to be fearful. It's absolutely unacceptable for a dog owner to criticise someone who is afraid of their dog or to say that they should not feel that way.
It's your duty as a dog owner to make every effort - and I mean effectively, not leaving it to chance - to make sure no one is ever put in fear by your dog, end of.

Not quite "end of!" She was walking on a narrow towpath where many dogs walk all at once frequently! Her companion was the one with the dog, and don't forget, this was before Robin bounced over to the dog! He was sitting quietly at my side for all the time until he exploded with excitement as it had all been way too much for a junior dog! END OFF

 

[Feverfew]

Not quite "end of!" She was walking on a narrow towpath where many dogs walk all at once frequently! Her companion was the one with the dog, and don't forget, this was before Robin bounced over to the dog! He was sitting quietly at my side for all the time until he exploded with excitement as it had all been way too much for a junior dog! END OFF

People have every right to walk in a public place without fearing for their safety. I have already cited the Dangerous Dogs Act, under which a person only has to fear being attacked as grounds for prosecution.

I can understand you might be feeling under attack yourself, as my posts have been very critical of your management of Robin's behaviour. I am trying to impress upon you the seriousness of the situation you find yourself in. Comments such as 'no one died' and 'she had no reason to be scared' are profoundly complacent, in a country where attacks by dogs rose by one-third last year and 10 people died last year as a result of a dog attack.

This is not a new situation for you, and reading back, it seems these problems have been escalating for some time. I really hope you take some time to reflect on what all this looks like to a bystander, and learn to see this behaviour for what it is: not 'playful', not 'harmless', not 'poor Robin' but a serious problem that needs serious attention.

 

[Feverfew]

Good morning, thanks for that RM it was a lot clearer

As FF has already mentioned, whether it was theirs or your failings, be mindful of what paths you take! So I'll just add, if it helps in emergency, handling a dog that is losing its mind is a lot to do with technique (a level of strength needed of course) and your double-clipped connection to lead, for example, may not be good enough in that situation e.g. maybe hunkering down and holding the handle on a good harness would have got you through? Again, I only mean as a last resort

Yes, agreed - a handle on the harness and crouching to steady yourself is a good strategy in an emergency. Great suggestion.

I am concerned to read that Robin is walked on a slip lead, however. If he pulls on a slip lead, it will tighten, which is likely to make him panic more, and could also damage his throat and neck - there's a lot of very delicate plumbing in there, as well as important endocrine glands. The thought of a tight restriction in that area gives me the horrors, frankly.

 

[Robins mum]

Yes, agreed - a handle on the harness and crouching to steady yourself is a good strategy in an emergency. Great suggestion.

I am concerned to read that Robin is walked on a slip lead, however. If he pulls on a slip lead, it will tighten, which is likely to make him panic more, and could also damage his throat and neck - there's a lot of very delicate plumbing in there, as well as important endocrine glands. The thought of a tight restriction in that area gives me the horrors, frankly.

Good grief! I dont have the energy to respond any more! What I see in Robin, I expect most people would not even notice! The little dogs I see leaping all over strangers, and trying to get treats, the little dogs with huge attitude problems attacking other dogs is seemingly 'cute' to many people! I am being a responsible owner and my dog will for the majority of the time walk quietly at my side on a loose lead! The few times I have had him react to the entire males over the past few weeks have been hugely concerning, but I can confidently say that the majority of people would not have thought anything of it perhaps not even noticed! I AM aware, I DO care, and I AM doing something about it! I reached out to this forum for advice and support - I've been slagged off and basically informed I am useless! Well thanks alot I will bother you no more which is a shame because I have been interested in lots that has been under discussion! I wish you all well.