Improving the breed.

[Cartman]

A recent topic went right of topic when the question was asked about dogs from another country.

I would like to see views on what Whippet people think of using either "home" or "imported" stud dogs. Also, are they being used too often, or for the wrong reasons?

Personally, I think depth in the quallity of males has fallen over much of the World. Would restricting the number of times a dog is used per year encourage us to keep more males?

Any thoughts?

 

[dessie]

Hmmmmmmmm. This could lead to some very deep and meaningful answers!!

Personally I would use a dog because I liked him, he suited my bitches as far as make and shape went, and he moved well. I would prefer it if his pedigee tied in with my girls at some point but I wouldn't use a dog that was very closely bred and conversely I doubt that I would ever use a dog that was a complete outcross or if it carried one line that I really didn't like. Other than that I don't care where it come from but I have to say that they more I see of the continental dogs, the more I like them, just my cup of tea!!

I think far too often a dog is used just because it is "flavour of the month" and the dog' owner is just as much at fault for accepting bitches which have nothing in common whatsoever.

 

[Cartman]

Hmmmmmmmm.  This could lead to some very deep and meaningful answers!!

I think far too often a dog is used just because it is "flavour of the month" and the dog' owner is just as much at fault for accepting bitches which have nothing in common whatsoever.

We are off to great start. Any one else want to through their hat into the ring?

 

[dawn]

We choose a stud dog to suit the bitch we are mating. The lines have to be right.

Like Dessie we would not use a dog if it had a particular line in its pedigee we did not like.

The dog must have qualities that will compliment the bitch. We usually start by looking at the dogs we admire in the ring and then studying their pedigrees.

We used Single Malt for our 'A' litter, this was not just because he was 'the dog of the day' but he was a dog we admired and his lines tied in perfectly with our own going back to Richards old Akonyte lines. We had this mating in mind a long time before he was the dog CC record holder.

We used a Single Malt son, Dumbriton Casting Stone on one of our other bitches so that we could then come back to Single Malt later on in our breeding plan with a bitch out of this litter, but this was not to be as the litter only produced a dog and we only keep bitches. "Use the dog" I hear you say. I do not believe a dog should be used at stud just the once as the temprement often changes and a male living with other males will become dominant.

As for using imported stud dogs, if his lines are right and he has all the qualities you want then why not???

Thats my two pen'th chipped in :cheers:

 

[JAX]

I purposely bought in a male that tied in with my line but also because a certain Mayzee wouldnt let a strange dog near her at any cost ( Ask Phil Moran Healy ,

I took her to Fergal , He said she was the most spoilt bitch he`d known ! (( I think he meant the dog !! ))

From Mayzee, I kept Mollee and I really struggled to find a dog who i thought would improve my stock ( I dont mean i that it was perfect but nothing I saw made me think`THATS THE DOG FOR MOLLEE ` , I used Ch Whipcat FireIsland (IMP)before he was made up .

Apart from the obvious fault I was really please with the quality of the litter . :b

Now that we have the chance to use Foriegn dogs should one be the one Im after i would have no hesitation in using him .

Ive no problem using a dog that has only 1 line that ties in with mine provided it has the attributes im looking for :*

If its the dog I like the look of he has to be sound both in body and mind !

At the last recent show there was more than 1 whippet lunging off the bench to get at dogs walking by, I cant be doing with that , Its completely alien for a whippet to be like that ,

I do think that the over use of some stud dogs can be detremental to the breed but it is up to breeders to make there own decisions , you have to look long term .

but now the `borders` have opened great

I cant wait to get to Tammsvik who knows what I might try to bring back :- " , I think at the moment from what Ive seen over the net that they have the depth in quality that we sometimes seem to be lacking.

Well thats my opinion for what its worth

 

[dawn]

If its the dog I like the look of he has to be sound both in body and mind !

Here here Jax

One of the dogs we had considered using, a few years ago, was barking his head off on the benching area thus we soon changed our minds!!

I like a dog that has a character and ring presence. :wub:

A puppy should be just that full of fun and mischief! Not timid, backing off or lunging for other dogs, they should have a friendly outgoing attitude.

 

[Karen]

Would restricting the number of times a dog is used per year encourage us to keep more males? Any thoughts?

I think this could never work. The stud dog uses up his quota for the year then someone with a super bitch just right for the pedigree rings up and cant use the dog.

Im pretty much with the others but will add something that makes my blood boil.

All the blame for every fault, genetic or structural, movement or temperement is heaped on the stud dog. Nothing is ever said about the bitch. What is the matter with everyone.

Why not ban the use of crap bitches just cos we think they may breed something, we dont use a dog in this haphazard fashion. Even when we take our very inferior bitch and she has her inferior puppies the whole nation goes blind and blames the stud dog.

Now I know we could say as stud dog owners I dont think your bitch is really good enough to have puppies. two people hav'nt spoken to me for years. :lol: It is very hard to turn people away without offending them.

 

[playawhile]

Hi!

Cartman asks if a dog should only have a restricted number of litters every year. I would re-ask the question - how many litters should a dog produce during its entire life? I think it’s good that this issue about stud dogs has been brought up on the list!! I think it’s important that a single dog is not overused of two reasons: 1. the overuse of a few studdogs results in loss of genetic variation 2. a serious defect can easily enter a breed if one dog is used heavily in a short period when he is young.

In Sweden we have a tradition of all breeders using the latest star in the show ring that is preferably also an import. It seems as that the information we lack about the imported dogs is information that does not exist. “What we don’t know can’t hurt”!!!! So we reject a lot of Swedish born dogs, as we have seen all relatives and know much about problems and so on.

In the eighties I imported Ch Play A While at Peperone and in 1989 he was top whippet in Sweden and I was not prepared when the telephone started ringing breeders wanting to use him. I was too young and inexperienced so I rarely said no and he had a bit to many litters. Today I would have acted differently.

Finding dogs to use is an endless “hunt” and like Cartman writes, I also feel there are fewer dogs to my liking now than some 10 to 15 years ago???

Personally I am these days trying to breed on type and I am trying to find suitable dogs to my bitches that is unrelated. Not always so easy but I am trying.

JAX – when you’re coming over to Sweden this summer you will see that we have a very big variety of types but this year I think the bigger stronger dogs carrying a lot of American background will be left at home because of the judges!!?? You will also see a lot of whippets looking just like what you see in the English show rings, as the influence from Fergal and Dutch Gold is very strong!!

Henrik Härling

 

[janfiers]

Not sure that I can add much to the debate other than to say, that the lines and hence the stud dog you use must complement your bitch, taking into account all the good and not so good points.

First time breeders should do their homework and try and see what sort of stock their chosen stud dog is throwing. This will give a good idea of the quality which you can expect if that dog is right for your bitch.

Jan

 

[zilloot]

re: Karen's point... I would take it if someone, an experienced stud owner, said my bitch wasn't good enough. What's the point of breeding weaknessess. I'm not getting into the 'playing God' thing here, it's just that the whippet has an established ideal to aim for which does the breed no harm (like bulldogs birthing problems) so why not aim at that ideal.

The faults I have in my pups which I bred myself are enough to make me NOT breed through those lines again although I do understand certain traits can be bred out. Consequently this pair are NOT in the ring but will live their perfectly happy pet lives with me.

If I thought my (stud)dog was not right for a bitch I would say so. If someone I respected said my bitch wasn't good enough I'd be sad. Being a little sad is better than producing 'less than the best'.

 

[Nightvision]

We have even more difficult in Finland than Henrik has in Sweden. Well actually, at this point we have most of the lines Swedish have, but we can see the influense of Henrik's Play A While at Peperone even more clearly in Finland. There aren't many breeders who doesn't have him somewhere in their lines, and some breeders base almost their whole breeding to him.

The other strong males who have done great influence in Sweden and now also in Finland are Birkonbrae True E'nuff and his "brother" B. Sweet Talking Guy. It's almost impossible to find a dog who hasn't got Play A While at Peperone or atleast one of the Birkonbrae-brothers in his/her pedigree.

And if there is some fault/sickness in those lines, or your dog is already heavily linebred to those dogs it's almost impossible to find a male to your bitch - if you don't want to go abroad (and we mostly have to do that). And the problems with testicles in some lines is something we have to think about, too. Many judges are saying to us over and over again that our bitches are much better than our males... And I think it tells you a lot about our situation if I tell you that almost 12-years old Ch Bohem Flight Time (imp. USA) is still going strong, even winning BOBs...

To me there must be a good reason why I use a certain male to my bitch, I must like him in general and his pedigree, and he must also have something extra to add, and the male shouldn't have any obvious common faults with the bitch. Not an easy thing to do...

I have imported three bitches from Denmark, who are mostly from different lines we currently have in Finland, but they all have Pencloe Dutch Gold and Hillsdown Fergal (many times) behind them. I can find a males to them right now, but there isn't many dogs I can use to their daughters in the future... We need more quality males, and we need them fast!!

 

[Nightvision]

I just have to add that I don't know much about these things, I'm just starting my breeding and trying do my best, and learn as much as possible... That's why I'm here.

 

[Cartman]

I just have to add that I don't know much about these things, I'm just starting my breeding and trying do my best, and learn as much as possible... That's why I'm here. 

Well looking at that dog on the Avatar, you are off to a great start.

 

[JAX]

Just had a quick look at your `web site and your A litter is Gt GT Grandson to Badger (PPassat) and GT Gt Grand neice to Mayzee`s mum ` Carved Opal at Silkstone ( Fire dance litter sister !! )

 

[Nightvision]

Just had a quick look at your `web site and your A litter is Gt GT Grandson to Badger (PPassat) and GT Gt Grand neice to Mayzee`s mum ` Carved Opal at Silkstone ( Fire dance litter sister !! ) 

Well, actually that would be my B-litter. My A-litter is from the same mother (who is G-granddaughter to your Passat) but the father is Swedish Ch Hubbestad Red Devil (the dog in my avatar is from the A-litter, you can probably see him at Tammsvik this summer). In my B-litter the father was Danish Ch Special Reserve du Haras d'Hélios (who is a grandson of Fire dance). My B-litter wasn't a successful one, we lost the whole litter, but I'm going to try remating later this year... Hopefully then we can have some nice and healthy puppies.

My current (C-) litter is from a bitch who is G-G-granddaughter to Fire dance. And the male is one of Henrik's male (imported from Sweden), who's mother is Passat's sister Piaffe. So, you see I'm playing with the same lines over an over again...

 

[Cartman]

We need more quality males, and we need them fast!!

Here I am o

 

[Karen]

I have imported three bitches from Denmark, who are mostly from different lines we currently have in Finland, but they all have Pencloe Dutch Gold and Hillsdown Fergal (many times) behind them. I can find a males to them right now, but there isn't many dogs I can use to their daughters in the future... We need more quality males, and we need them fast!!

Its interesting that you brought in 3 bitches, perhaps it may have paid you to bring in one dog. Would you have difficulty finding a dog to bring in.

Do people always want bitches and are a lot of us relying on others to supply our bitches with studs. In which case we will never better the quality of the stud dogs.

 

[dessie]

The trouble is, Karen, most people decide whether they want to keep dogs or bitches because of the hassle factor. I am lucky in that I can keep both because we have enough rooms/doors to keep them separate when bitches are in season. But, having said that I can keep both, you can only use one dog a certain amount of times on your own stock before you come to an impasse, especially if the bitches are all related. So, although I would prefer to keep dogs than bitches I still have to look around for suitable stud dogs and it is becoming a real headache, especially as all the dogs I like seem to be abroad!

I know I could get my bitches passported but I'm not keen on doing that unless I really have to because (a) I don't like micro-chipping and (b) I'm too bone idle to go through the process!! That's why I was really pleased when Jackie Bourdin finally said she would let me have TJ, I can now use him on the bitch I intended without having to faff around!!!

 

[Nightvision]

Its interesting that you brought in 3 bitches, perhaps it may have paid you to bring in one dog.  Would you have difficulty finding a dog to bring in.
Do people always want bitches and are a lot of us relying on others to supply our bitches with studs.  In which case we will never better the quality of the stud dogs.

Well, I can't keep any more males, I already have one, and I don't have room for another. Actually we were planning to import a malepuppy, but unfortunately he was lacking his other testicle. Hopefully we can find another quality male (puppy or adult) in couple years, and it's possible for us to buy him. It's not that easy with importing males, there is always something you have to think about, testicles, size and so-on... How many of you is ready sell a high quality male to someone else?

 

[JAX]

With peps who only keep bitches why not ask if you can have pick of the dog pups ?

If they have quality in depth in their stock and the breeding is right is it not worth the gamble with a pup.? :b

I wonder how many super quaity dogs have gone to pet homes .In Mikkee`s litter their was a dog you could die for !But i need another male like a whole in the head at present