Guarding and Growling...

[Pip-n-Stan]

Hi everyone,

Stanley’s always had a little guarding problem. I’ve been working on him with the “trade” concept, and he’s been making great progress... except he just growled at me.

It’s the first time he’s properly growled and snarled at me, and I was afraid to put my hands anywhere near him in case he bit. It’s never been this bad before.

The main thing is - I think - my mum’s partner has a very different approach to taking things from Stanley. He thinks Stanley should give it up straight away and if he doesn’t he gets a physical punishment. I’ve tried to explain to him that this won’t help in any way, maybe even making it worse, but he’s not very receptive to other ideas/opinions. I don’t think it’s any coincidence that when Stanley growled at me just now, it was on my Mum’s bed: the same place he last had a physical punishment from my Mum's partner.

My mum doesn’t think it’s a correlation, she thinks “he wouldn’t remember it”. I think he would. He’s NEVER been that bad with me. I think it was a combination of a valuable resource (chicken-wrapped bone) in a place related to a stressful situation in the past.

I need some proof/evidence/solid advice to tell my mum and her partner that will help them trust me when I tell them physical punishment won’t work. And I need some advice as to what to do when he really growls at me like that - even to me, rewarding him as a form of bribery to “trade” feels almost like rewarding the growling. I’ve had a behaviourist come see the dogs in the past, but he didn’t say what to do if it gets that bad, because it never has been. What should I do when it gets to that point? This time he was not given a reward and is now downstairs in his crate.

Any good advice that might help me, and help sway my mum and her partner’s opinion would be much appreciated. x

 

[Ari_RR]

try this.. Why Growling is Good

If you do a search, you will find may articles with the same point of view. Growling is communication, punishing the dog for growling is essentially punishing him for communicating with you.

The reasonable course of action is to stop, then ask - "why is he uncomfortable or doesn't like it?". Once you have an idea what makes him react this way - you can figure our how to train so he doesn't (if it's a matter of training. It may be just pain in some cases).

 

[Pip-n-Stan]

Thanks so much @Ari_RR. Amongst other things, I’ll tell them it’s his way of communicating. It’s definitely guarding. I’m just struggling to work out what to do when it gets to that point where he is already really snarling! What if I NEED to get the item from him? How do I actually get it from him? Do I still “bribe” with a reward for dropping said item, even if he growls? My mum and her partner both see that as incredibly counter-productive, unfortunately, and I think that’s where the biggest problem lies...

 

[JudyN]

If he will give up the item after growling without resorting to biting, that is HUGE and he should be rewarded heavily. As Ari says, growling is very much a communication that he isn't comfortable. If he says, 'Oh go on then, you have it' that's just what you want, so it should be rewarded.

However, in the eyes of a dog, possession is 10 10ths of the law. If it's in his mouth, it's his. And if you ignore the snarl/growl, you may well get bitten.

With a guardy dog, if trading isn't going to work, you are much better off leaving the dog to eat what he has without confronting him. There is very little that you NEED to get off a dog. Even it's a cooked bone, which could cause a disgestive problem, the danger to him is probably less than what might happen to him if someone tries to take it off him forcibly. Some dogs (I have one) you simply have to accept that if they have it, it's theirs. The idea that a dog should defer to its masters is out of date - an 'alpha' pack animal in a family group doesn't take food from a subordinate one.

Beds can also be very high value locations and in your case, also possibly linked to stress because of his previous physical punishment. Many dogs are uncomfortable being approached when on a bed even if they don't have food, so their space needs to be respected. So to be honest, if he had a chicken-wrapped bone and was on a bed, it's not at all surprising that he was so guardy.

It is all a matter of working with what he's comfortable with. If he'll trade, you're doing great, but he should be doing it willingly and happily. If he snarls, you're going far too fast and asking too much, too soon. If you don't think he'll trade, leaving him be will help him feel comfortable and secure, and therefore safer if someone approaches him. All confrontation achieves is making him feel more defensive nesxt time someone approaches, so he'll be more ready with the growls.

How to convince your mother and her partner? Tell them that ideas about dog training have changed a lot recently. Have a read on this article on resource guarding and see if that helps you convince them: Resource Guarding For what it's worth, I have a 9-year-old resource guarder who was never going to be reformed, despite behaviourist input. If I had used a confrontational approach, he probably wouldn't have made it past three years old... it really is that black and white. But we manage his environment to stop him getting food he shouldn't have, if we mess up then he eats it, and he's not stressed and defensive because he doesn't think we're going to try to remove whatever he has.

 

[JudyN]

I should add that physical punishment has no place in dog training - ever. It is simply counterproductive. As far as a dog is concerned, taking something off him that was HIS (i.e. in his mouth) is bad enough, you then go on to abuse him for no reason whatsoever... The same applies to other 'punishments', including 'telling off'. Setting the dog up for success (e.g. giving him something relatively low value and trading for something high value) and then rewarding him makes him want to do what you want him to do and also makes it become a habit.

 

[Pip-n-Stan]

Thanks @JudyN. This is all stuff I’ve told them already, and I could never bring myself to physically punish him. I know it’s counter-productive, but neither of them can see that I’ll carry on trading with him. It’s definitely what has been working so far. I don’t know how they can’t see it. After what happened last night, and especially with kids in the house I need to seriously try to persuade them to understand and trust me!

For some perspective, here's how he normally is when I trade, armed with gravy bones.

There's no audio, but I asked him to drop it, and praised him when he did. This is the same chew he guarded on the bed last night, and I had treats to hand then, he just started growling before I'd even made a move to take it... I was so so shocked!!

 

[JudyN]

Thanks @JudyNThis is the same chew he guarded on the bed last night, and I had treats to hand then, he just started growling before I'd even made a move to take it... I was so so shocked!!

We all have off days and grumpy days - and as you say, what had happened earlier most probably had a part to play.

How about you ask your mum and her BF if they can try it your way for a few weeks just to see if you're right? And if you can get them to appreciate that methods have moved on since the old 'dominance' days that would help too. Mentioning that police and the military are now moving over to reward-based training because it works better might help persuade them that it's not just for fluffy puppy lovers too!

Oh by the way, that chew looks like a swallowable-sized bit of rawhide. If you google 'dangers of rawhide' or similar, you'll see that they can be dangerous.

 

[Pip-n-Stan]

@JudyN Yes, thanks so much, that’s a really good idea actually. My Mum’s partner especially thinks I’m too “soft” in my approach. It’ll be good to mention the police force now use these methods too!!

As for the rawhide - I know it poses some threats, but they adore it. And they never ever have it unsupervised. I guess anything edible/chewable poses some sort of threat, but I hate the thought of restricting EVERYTHING nice from them just because of potential dangers! I see it like a human never eating things like chicken/kidney beans/mushrooms ever again, even if they love them, just because there’s a tiny risk involved.
In fact, I got him a Yaker once instead because of what I’d heard about rawhides, and that was actually worse as he swallowed it whole before it was even small enough to pop in the microwave! He was fine in the end and it worked its way out.... lol!

 

[Ari_RR]

As for mum and partner - remember, positive reinforcement works just as well with humans.
If at some point you see a glimpse of support, understanding or even just acknowledgement that there may actually be something to it - reward them! Don't know what they like as rewards, maybe a big hug, or bake them some soft oatmeal cookies - don't be stingy on praise, it may help ;-)

K9 Training Using Positive Methods | Whole Dog Journal

 

[leashedForLife]

.

The ‘safest’ form of rawhide is minced & shaped - cut into tiny bits, then while still damp & malleable, the small pieces are put into a mold, compressed, & baked dry.
However - rawhide is not a suitable “reward” for in the moment training, as it takes too doggoned long to safely gnaw back into the original bits, even in the diced-&-shaped ‘safer’ version.


Immediate rewards must be swallowable, with no chewing required -
When I use commercial treats, it’s usually products like Mother Hubbard’s freeze-dried liver, or Merrit’s F-D lamb-lung. // I use S/s scissors to cut them into pieces, the Ma Hubbard’s chips, already small, are snipped into between 6 & 9 itty-bitty pieces.
Even at that size, most dogs will practically do cartwheels to earn just one!

Quality trumps sheer volume, every time, IME as a trainer across more than 30 years.

I recently made homemade beef-heart jerky, in the electric oven, & I will let U know what the dogs think of it. . Zero salt added, grass-fed organic beef. It smells incredible.

- terry

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[leashedForLife]

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Had my 1st customer for the beefheart jerky - a tiny Yorkie x Maltese.

He belongs to the nice mechanic who came by to fetch Rozinante (our faithful ramp-equipped van) to his shop for repair. Very sweet dog, a bit shy but warmed to us fairly quickly.
I would say he gave it 5 stars, LOL - I tore off a piece, maybe 1” x 2”, & handed it to him; he was delighted to take it, carried it off, dropped it, sniffed it, picked it up, dropped it - & looked at each of us. // He didn’t know what to do with it - turns out his former owner, an elderly lady, had only ever fed him soft foods, & chewing was a new concept.

No worries - I gave him a tiny tidbit, he ate it eagerly, a bit larger, he chewed it twice & got it down, then he went back to the larger piece, lying on the floor, picked it up, chewed firmly, broke it into 3 hunks, & ate them all.
I think he got the idea...
while the mechanic & his nephew drank their coffee & had a few cookies, I tossed tidbits for the dog to chase & eat.

He (the dog) has a bad Rt elbow & a worse Rt knee, but so long as he isn’t over fed, his joints should last his lifetime without causing too much trouble- he’s not fat now, & he’s about 10-YO. // They just got him 5 days ago, their previous dog - a ringer for this little fella, they could be twins in appearance - was coaxed out of their yard last week, kidnapped, & later, hit by a car & killed.
The barstewards who stole him even took his new Xmas sweater off, before turning him loose to be run down. Grrrrr.

This little dog has landed on his feet, he was about to lose his home b/c the old woman’s DH was in hospice at home, & she could not care for both hubby AND dog... she knew the mechanic had a lookalike dog, & appealed to them for help, just 2 days after their own dog went missing & died. A terrible thing, but a good thing came from it.

- terry

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