Genetics, Health And Breeding?

[jayp]

Hi I think we could all take a good look at how other breeds afflicted with immune mediated problems (such as in Beardies Collies)are trying to irradicate this problem, where did they start? What problems have they encoutered and solved, learn from others, the information is out there if we choose to look

Please never forget most of our puppies will be peoples beloved pets and these diseases are devastating to the dog and owner.

I have a dog with poliarthritis,not bred by me,but not from the suspect lines

He is on £90.00 per MONTH of medication and i am constantly worried as if he sicks up his steroid even then the next day cannot move, high temp, i could go on.

What brought it home to me was that many experienced breeders dismissed this disease as and i quote " dont know what the problem is you just put them on steroids for a while and they are ok " I wish!!!!!!!

I do know these problems are on the increase in our breed yet know one is even

making an attempt to collate their information

I would be more than happy to work with anyone on this and any other concern

There is no information on health on Breed Club Wbsites as far as i know where owners can get any help or advise, i am lucky in having contacts to give advise, pet owners generally have their vet but thats all

 

[patsy]

Hi  I think we could all take a good look at how other breeds afflicted with immune mediated problems (such as in Beardies Collies)are trying to irradicate this problem, where did they start?  What problems have they encoutered and solved, learn from others, the information is out there if we choose to lookPlease never forget most of our puppies will be peoples beloved pets and these diseases are devastating to the dog and owner.

I have a dog with poliarthritis,not bred by me,but not from the suspect lines

He is on £90.00 per MONTH of medication and i am constantly worried as if he sicks up his steroid even then the next day cannot move, high temp, i could go on.

What brought it home to me was that many experienced breeders dismissed this disease as and i quote " dont know what the problem is you just put them on steroids for a while and they are ok "    I wish!!!!!!!

I do know these problems are on the increase in our breed yet know one is even

making an attempt to collate their information

I would be more than happy to work with anyone on this and any other concern

There is no information on health on Breed Club Wbsites as far as i know where owners can get any help or advise, i am lucky in having contacts to give advise, pet owners generally have their vet but thats all

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Sorry to hear about your boy janice it must be awful to live with. I did say in an earlier post that forms were sent to all breed clubs on health issues. Unless dogs and bitches from these lines are taken out of breeding programs and breeders who have had problems are completely honest it would be the only way forward. I do know of a lady in the south who spent thousands of pounds on her adored boy she received very nasty phone calls and hate mail by trying to get something done about it, she did send all her information to the breed council and they would not accept it unless it came from her breed club. The breed club flatly refused.

 

[windsongwhippets]

Hi all

I cannot, of course reveal the name of the PRA affected dog on this public forum. Those who know me do know as I have been very forthcoming about it. Patsy knows about it as well. This dog was euthanized- not mainly because of the blindness which ensued but he also had a serious neurolgical problem that developed after the onset of the PRA. His quality of life was terrible and my Vet and I agreed it was the humane thing to do.

I did notify his breeder and asked whether this had ever happened before within the line and was told simply no! I won't go there either.

By the way this dog was NOT Nevedith Justa Joker who spent most of his life in America here and IS NOT my present import Marchpast Fine Muslin. Just for the record I do want that known.

You know it is very important to be up front about the problems that occur. And everyone knows about the "witch hunts" that can ensue. What must be made obvious is that none of us ask for these problems and they are as heartbreaking to breeders as they are to pet owners. None of us can ever know when a health problem of some sort will turn up in our dogs- the old yarn "There but for the Grace of God go I " applies. I guess if everyone tried to be of support in situations like these, it would make it easier for people to come forward. But, it's like Karen said if you make a problem public, people won't come to you for dogs. So you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Carol

 

[alfie]

Related individuals who are lucky enough not to develop an autoimmune-related condition may still carry the genes and pass them onto future generations.

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I think that sentence just about sums it up Elizabeth :thumbsup:

My dog Alfie has 2 litter mates with auto-immune problems (or should I say HAD- one of them died from the condition about 2 years ago )

I desperately wanted a puppy by him, and I did have stud enquiries for him, but there was NO WAY I was going to risk any resulting puppies developing this awful condition.

He is in PERFECT health :luck: at 11 years old, but I do not ever regret my decision not to allow him to mate any bitches, just in case :b I would never forgive myself if I was responsible for sick offspring

I think that Cathie and other caring breeders are to be applauded for refusing to let the subject be swept under the carpet :thumbsup:

 

[anniewhippet]

Well Karen, that is some kind of list, enough to put you off breeding forever! Some of it I was familiar with, some not. I dont think that at the end of the day it matters where  the problems came from only that they are here, to one degree or another and now all of us should work together to get rid of them  before our lovely breed is swamped with them. It does not matter where any of us live, all of our Whippets are related, either closely or distantly, all of our Whippets started in the same place. Above  everything else the one thing that that we all share is our love of the breed and there is no getting away from the fact that we do have problems.I think that its time that we all worked together and in this country take a leaf out of the A.W.C book and start a Health Committee run along the same lines as our American friends run theirs making tests available at our  breed club championship shows.

We have a congress coming up this summer so it will be interesting to hear what comes out of that when health issues are addressed.

Again I say well done Carol for being so open, it would be terrific if others out there who have themselves knowledge of various problems felt brave enough to  talk about them.

Nicky

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Agreeable post Nicky, a more 'concerned' look at health issues would be most helpful to the breed. It seems by the replies to this and the other good thread that people are concerned, and interested, in this subject so perhaps the forthcoming congress can 'kick start' a more universal and open forum on the subject.

 

[Eceni]

Agreeable post Nicky, a more 'concerned' look at health issues would be most helpful to the breed. It seems by the replies to this and the other good thread that people are concerned, and interested, in this subject so perhaps the forthcoming congress can 'kick start' a more universal and open forum on the subject.

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There's a forthcoming congress??? :blink:

are interested amateurs allowed to attend?

m

 

[UKUSA]

Well Karen, that is some kind of list, enough to put you off breeding forever! Some of it I was familiar with, some not. I dont think that at the end of the day it matters where  the problems came from only that they are here, to one degree or another and now all of us should work together to get rid of them  before our lovely breed is swamped with them. It does not matter where any of us live, all of our Whippets are related, either closely or distantly, all of our Whippets started in the same place. Above  everything else the one thing that that we all share is our love of the breed and there is no getting away from the fact that we do have problems.I think that its time that we all worked together and in this country take a leaf out of the A.W.C book and start a Health Committee run along the same lines as our American friends run theirs making tests available at our  breed club championship shows.

We have a congress coming up this summer so it will be interesting to hear what comes out of that when health issues are addressed.

Again I say well done Carol for being so open, it would be terrific if others out there who have themselves knowledge of various problems felt brave enough to  talk about them.

Nicky

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Agreeable post Nicky, a more 'concerned' look at health issues would be most helpful to the breed. It seems by the replies to this and the other good thread that people are concerned, and interested, in this subject so perhaps the forthcoming congress can 'kick start' a more universal and open forum on the subject.

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You know Annie, I hope you are right, this topic certainly seems to have gained some momentum. I think that those amongst us who have had or have affected dogs feel ready to speak out and hopefully the time has finally come for them and the rest of us who have genuine concerns to be heard and maybe as I said in a previous post something can be put in place to look into these issues. I still do not believe that the breed is sinking fast but I dont think that a Health Committee or something like it can hurt plus I think that it also shows those who think that all us show people care about is the next dog show that we do care about our dogs welfare.

Nicky

 

[windsongwhippets]

Hi again

I got to thinking after my last post and I have some things and a question to throw out here. The same dog that came up with PRA- I had stopped using this dog even before the PRA- thank God !! The reasons being several: All of a sudden I was getting cleft palates like mad ( never in 47 years of breeding had I had one before this)- I had 5 or 6 in succeeding litters, then I got a hydrocephalic puppy and had a few "fading" puppies. Now it just could have been karma catching up with me- that is a possibility. The I had a dog go in for a routine vaccination. Well the IDIOT Vet he was taken to gave a 9 way shot AND a Rabies shot in quick succession. The dogs' immune system crashed ! The Vet of course mis-diagnosed the problem and started treating him with massive doses of pain meds ( damn- I can't recall the name of the product- starts with a B I think. Help here?????) Well he got to the point he was skin and bones and couldn't walk on his own. I insisted the owner bring him to my Vet. Thankfully he diagnosed the problem and after a long hard road the dog was fine. I never experienced the same problem in another dog. But then I never allow two vaccinations to be done at the same time either .

That's the scenario, now here's the question for our Veterinary people. Do you think it is possible for a dog to be a total genetic nightmare ? Or were all of these things totally unrelated ? I know "stuff" sometimes happens, but in this particular case it was like a snowstorm - it just kept coming and coming.

Carol

 

[UKUSA]

Agreeable post Nicky, a more 'concerned' look at health issues would be most helpful to the breed. It seems by the replies to this and the other good thread that people are concerned, and interested, in this subject so perhaps the forthcoming congress can 'kick start' a more universal and open forum on the subject.

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There's a forthcoming congress??? :blink:

are interested amateurs allowed to attend?

m

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There certainly is and you most certainly can. It is being held in Sweden, log on to the Swedish Whippet Club for details.

Nicky

 

[fewterer]

Do you think it is possible for a dog to be a total genetic nightmare ? 

Quite possibly yes, especially if it was very intensively line/in-bred. Do you happen to know the Coefficient of Inbreeding re. the dog in question, that might give some clues.

 

[Seraphina]

There is one easy and effective way to improve the breed genetic diversity and slow down spread of any inherited problem; have limit on how many litters each dog is allowed to sire. Bitches are already somewhat naturally limited, and at least here we have rules on frequency that we are allowed to breed a bitch.

We can test or at least look for problems that we know are present in our breed, but the danger is if one top winning dog is a carrier of a problem we do not know about. Especially if this problem has a late onset. The dog can be used over large number of bitches resulting in this problem becoming widespread in the population. And another way to safeguard the overall health is not breeding too close.

We are very lucky that Whippets are relatively numerous and healthy.

Some people suggest that because all pure bred breeds are closed populations they are all inbred. That is of-course true to a point, however that is also true about any species, especially of wild animals, as choice of their mates is geographically limited.

IMO one of the reasons Whippet is reasonably genetically diverse is the famous "colour immaterial" , in breeds where certain markings or colour is unacceptable good pups were discarded, and "correctly" marked dogs over used.

 

[seaspot_run]

IMO one of the reasons Whippet is reasonably genetically diverse is the famous "colour immaterial" , in breeds where certain markings or colour is unacceptable good pups were discarded, and "correctly" marked dogs over used.

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I certainly agree with this as having been helpful in Whippets, but there are numerous monochromatic breeds where problems are very rampant, so it's not the total story.

Still, in the USA color and markings-prejudice (which is to some extent fostered by our standard) has resulted in a lot of quality-bred dogs of overall good type and soundness being discarded from breeding programs on a basis other than health.

It goes back to what I said earlier--if they can't win big, their genetic influence will be negligible no matter how healthy they might be.

We are making strides here, though. Despite what judges do I really do feel there is greater openness towards rarer and less competitive color and marking schemes than there has been for a couple of decades.

 

[windsongwhippets]

Hi again

I swear sometimes I am brain dead. It was Rimadyl of course that the dog with the immune problem was put on. Huge doses- everytime the owner called and said the dog was worse, the Vet upped the dosage. Until I screamed bloody murder. Owner didn't know- she was a fairly novice person. Thought she was helping the dog.

I don't know the inbreeding co-efficient on the PRA dog. He wasn't as tightly bred as Joker was, but he was linebred. But for myself I believe in linebreeding and I won't get into arguing about it. I will say I've had alot of linebred and yes, inbred dogs in my 47 years in dogs and nothing even close to this dog ever happened. I even owned a dog that was the result of a litter brother to litter sister breeding ( not a Whippet). He is still the most stunning example of that breed I have ever seen.

Carol

 

[Scudder]

Want to see how serious we are about health testing in the US? This link is to the Cavalier Health Clinic database. Even though its run by the Cav folks, we all rely on it to find testing throughtout the year for our own dogs.

http://www.cavalierhealth.com/health_clinics.htm

Those are just planned clinics, usually associated with Specialty or all breed shows. Many clubs subsidize testing or use it as a club income maker.

A lot of people (including me) utilize the services of local specialty vet practices where they have their own Board certified cardiologists and ophthomologists on staff to get testing done.

The Whippet Health Foundation will subsidize a lot of testing at the AWC National this year. For even deeper discounts, you have to agree up front to put the results of your dogs health testing in the WHF open database. You can check it out here

http://www.whippethealth.org/DB/default.aspx

Its still in its infancy, but it has been growing with recent publicity and I'm sure it will grow with the increased monetary incentives at the National this year.

Kristen

 

[seaspot_run]

As I said on the other thread, the gold standard for a US Whippet breeder is to have a cardiac clearance, a CERF clearance for eyes, and a clean BAER test. Some breeders also are doing Hips and thyroid.

The list I put up earlier may be off-putting, but bear in mind that many of those conditions are extremely rare. Just because they are seen in Whippets doesn't mean they are widespread here.

I still think that other than cardiac, most health problems in Whippets can be seen in the very baby puppies and so aren't passed on to the puppy buyer here in the USA. They are a breeder headache and heartache more than an owner heartache.

I've dealt with some problems but if I may toot my own horn a little, missing testicles aren't one of them. I am on my fourth generation of one of my bitch lineages where every male from every litter in each generation has been intact. That's not small beer. In the last 20 years, I've had only a handful of males who weren't intact.

However, I'm not sure I'd class cryptorchidism as a health problem, technically. It's more of a genetic defect.

 

[Seraphina]

I've dealt with some problems but if I may toot my own horn a little, missing testicles aren't one of them. I am on my fourth generation of one of my bitch lineages where every male from every litter in each generation has been intact. That's not small beer.  In the last 20 years, I've had only a handful of males who weren't intact.

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Just from interest; at what stage do you consider dog to be a cryptorchid? Three weeks, 6 weeks, 8weeks, 12 weeks...........???

However, I'm not sure I'd class cryptorchidism as a health problem, technically. It's more of a genetic defect.

I have seen some scientific medical opinions, which considered undescended testicles a result of improperly functioning endocrinal system. Interestingly Addison's disease is also known as chronic adrenal insufficiency. However, although Addison's is listed on dog sites as a genetic disorder in humans it is not considered hereditary.

 

[seaspot_run]

I consider a dog a cryptorchid at 12 weeks if both testicles aren't in the scrotum at least when the dog is relaxed. I hear of them descending later, but that's not been something I personally have observed.

Addison's is more common in some breeds than others. That really does make me think there is at least a genetic component to it, but it may require an environmental trigger. Here in the USA, I know of at least one group of Addisonian Whippets which are closely related but were raised in different regions, by different breeders, eating different food, etc.

I've not had Addison's yet myself, knock wood.

:luck:v

But my feeling is, if you breed long enough and work with enough different lines, at some point you'll encounter just about everything that occurs in your breed.

Unlike many of my contemporaries, Mother and I came from other breeds first which were much more plagued with problems. I think Whippets are nowhere near being as difficult to breed as those breeds, but that could change if breeders don't pay attention to genetics and try to nail down mode of inheritance of some of our current issues.

 

[Seraphina]

Addison's is more common in some breeds than others. That really does make me think there is at least a genetic component to it, but it may require an environmental trigger. Here in the USA, I know of at least one group of Addisonian Whippets which are closely related but were raised in different regions, by different breeders, eating different food, etc.

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Few years ago my doctors thought i might have it, so I have done lots of research and asked lots of questions about Addison's in people. While it seems to run in families, so does TB, and often they used be both seen together in the past. Naturally, I was very concerned about the chance that my daughter would also have it. In no time any of the doctors expressed any concern about her, on the contrary I was told that is extremely unlikely. In articles I read there was quite a bit about pregnant women with Addison's but all the concern was about the mother coping with pregnancy, none were about health of the fetus, and nowhere I came across suggestion that Addison's sufferers should not have babies.

I believe that sites dealing with human health issues are considerably more accurate, than dog sites.

When you talk about group of Addisonian Whippets, what was the percentage of sufferers in litters and at what age did they become ill? There is no test for this condition that can be done prior onset of symptoms, which can appear quite late at life.

 

[~Annie~]

There is one easy and effective way to improve the breed genetic diversity and slow down spread of any inherited problem; have limit on how many litters each dog is allowed to sire.  Bitches are already somewhat naturally limited, and at least here we have rules on frequency that we are allowed to breed a bitch.  We can test  or at least look for problems that we know are present in our breed, but the danger is if one top winning dog is a carrier of a problem we do not know about.  Especially if this problem has a late onset.  The dog can be used over large number of bitches resulting in this problem becoming widespread in the population.

I have an example of this with one of my mini wire dachshunds. He is 3 and has the dubious distinction of being the youngest mini wire ever, by some years, to be diagnosed with Lafora's, an ultimately fatal form of myoclonic epliepsy. Usually onset is seen at 7 or 8, long after a good stud dog will have been used again and again. Because it has become apparent in my dog so very early the specialists have been taking a long hard look at his pedigree relative to that of other dogs known to have the disease. Probably up to 25% of mini wires now carry the genes for Lafora's but it has been suggested to me that the huge increase in reported cases - my specialist diagnosed two others in the week she diagnosed Wilbur - relates to just one respected and well used line and particularly to one dog some generations back. However, given the small gene pool in mini wires, to withdraw all the dogs descended from this dog from breeding programmes would be to decimate the breed, so it's not going to happen. If the number of litters a dog could sire was limited the problem in the mini wires would be far less severe.

Annie

 

[Eceni]

Addison's is more common in some breeds than others. That really does make me think there is at least a genetic component to it, but it may require an environmental trigger. Here in the USA, I know of at least one group of Addisonian Whippets which are closely related but were raised in different regions, by different breeders, eating different food, etc.

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Few years ago my doctors thought i might have it, so I have done lots of research and asked lots of questions about Addison's in people. While it seems to run in families, so does TB, and often they used be both seen together in the past. Naturally, I was very concerned about the chance that my daughter would also have it. In no time any of the doctors expressed any concern about her, on the contrary I was told that is extremely unlikely. In articles I read there was quite a bit about pregnant women with Addison's but all the concern was about the mother coping with pregnancy, none were about health of the fetus, and nowhere I came across suggestion that Addison's sufferers should not have babies.

I believe that sites dealing with human health issues are considerably more accurate, than dog sites.

When you talk about group of Addisonian Whippets, what was the percentage of sufferers in litters and at what age did they become ill? There is no test for this condition that can be done prior onset of symptoms, which can appear quite late at life.

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If you look at the site that lists dog diseases, what they're saying is that there's an increased incidence of any particular syndrome/disease/whatever in the named breed than the general population. So if they see 10 whippets per 100 dogs, say and 20 cases per 100 of Addison's are in whippets, then they say there's an increased representation within the breed. Whether this is inherited or not is for us to decide later - but it would seem if there have been 'lines' that there is at least an inherited predisposition and yes, human genetics is more advanced, but humans are not dogs and we can't always draw parallels between the two. Beagles, when subjected to cigarette smoke, do not develop pulomonary carcinoma - the erroneous extrapolation of that to the human population is what let the cigarette companies off the hook for so long.

so - I think the point is not to get worried about the interpretation of the figures just yet, but to begin the surveys that give us the numbers - and the pedigrees and then to work it out. If I were buying a whippet (whey I buy a whippet) I would want to know that.

m