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Montysdad

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My new rescue dog is being a pain with my large kio pond, he is totally obsessed with it,tried putting a fence up and blocking ways he can get near it but he still finds ways to get onto a shelf and stretches
over to pinch fish food.I could live with his naughtiness but the pond has to have a net on to stop
herons and there is a real danger he could get tangled up in it and drown.As a last resort I am
thinking about fitting an electric fence, there are some low powered ones which wouldnt harm
him but pretty sure that if he gets a couple of jolts off it, he wouldnt go anywhere near the pond again.
I know electric collars are cruel and rightly banned now but I really need to protect nim from his own
daftness.Any views on it ?
 
I'm not sure about the electric fence, you'd have to be sure the low powered ones would do no harm... or if it was so low that he may tolerate it even, in order to get the thing he so desires!! Is there any way, on top of a standard fence you could also put maybe large plant pots on the shelf that he uses? With some kind of obstructive shrubs in them?
It is a worry for sure re him getting tangled in netting...
The only other thing is have a look for a 'sturdy pond protector', I just googled that and a few different ones came up, maybe another option? At least that removes the worry of him getting tangled, if it can work for your type of pond.
 
I would only use a battery powered one, low power that just pulses, with him being short haired he will
feel it if hes anywhere near it, He hates pain and I am positive it would only take one jolt,I dont want to scare or hurt
him but there have been many cases of animals drowning on ponds with nets.I cant use any other type of protection, it has to have a flexible net
 
Phew a tricky subject!:eek::rolleyes:

Our lot know full well what happens when they touch an electric fence that is switched on. They will not go near the fencing that shocked them for quiet a while, if they were standing close to one of us at the time we will get the blame. However they do forgive us quiet quickly.
If we are out in a sheep field with electric fencing surrounding the sheep the girls will not go through it. if someone steps on the fencing and invites the girls to go over it the dogs know to jump or step over quickly and carefully.
Our donkeys only need the electric fence turned on for a day or two, their memories can last sometimes for 6 months before it needs turning on again for another couple of days.
.
It could be a quick fix for the problem, if he is sensible he will only touch it once (which is far better than getting tangled in the netting and drowning).
 
Yup, the rescue kennel he came from has an electric fence in a secure exercise field so it must be ok.
He is still very puppyish and half of it is sheer naughtiness and attention seeking but I would hate anything
to happen to him
 
Please, please no. Apart from the usual risks (powering through the shock on adrenaline and not being able to get back, short circuiting and failures, can you imagine what would happen to him, and your fish, if he fell in the water wearing the collar?

Using an Electric Fence For Your Dog | Victoria Stilwell Positively

I'm not even sure shock collars are legal here.

Can you get a metal grid cover for the pond? Or just keep him on a lead in the garden?
 
Livestock electric fences do not involve wearing a collar.
The fences are battery powered, not mains.
 
I would never use a shock collar on him, i was considering using a low power electric fence.
Its a matter of balance, I think he is in far more danger from the possibility of getting tangled
in the net and drowning than hopefuly learning very quickly that ponds are not playgrounds.
The pond is massive and has to have a net on it, I honestly have tried everything to stop him.
The modern electric fences are safe and the shock is a very quick pulse.
Keeping him on a lead is not really practical, he is young and loves his lawn zoomies
I will try and download a video of his antics
 
There's a chance that he might be so upset by the electric shock he becomes scared of the garden in general - if it can happen in one part of the garden, who's to know where else in the garden might be dangerous? And if it's not a strong enough shock to scare him, as JoanneF says he might ignore/jump it anyway. Don't forget how sensitive, and how strongly driven, sighthounds can be.

How high would a fence have to be to stop him jumping over it? It looks to me as if it could be feasible to fence of the pond, even if it's not the look you want.

Alternatively, you could convert your pond to a wildlife pond - no fish, just frogs, newts, dragonflies, beetles, native plants. No need for netting, and awesome for wildlife and the environment in general (and to my mind, much more interesting). Much safer if he does end up in the pond, too.

Whatever you do, you may always have to supervise him in the garden (unless you go for a fence you know he can't jump), because you might not realise that he's somehow got through the electric fence until it's too late. It could have been accidentally turned off, or there could have been a power cut, and/or he might have spotted a cat admiring the fish so forgot about the pain...
 
I know its not easy to find an answer but hope you can see I need to do something,
The pond is full of valuable kio carp, some over 20 years old so it wouldnt be fair to kick them
out.He can jump a 6ft fence so that would be no deterrent, I did fit the fence at the back but
he just walks in front of it despite me putting obstacles in his way.
The problem has got worse over the last week as I have started feeding the fish ( they more
or less hibernate over winter)! he is very food obsessed.
Had 2 dogs before, they never went near the pond.
He is a sensitive soul and I am trying to do the right thing
Never knew Lurchers could be such fun :)
 
Montysdad said:
I know its not easy to find an answer but hope you can see I need to do something,
The pond is full of valuable kio carp, some over 20 years old so it wouldnt be fair to kick them
out.He can jump a 6ft fence so that would be no deterrent, I did fit the fence at the back but
he just walks in front of it despite me putting obstacles in his way.
The problem has got worse over the last week as I have started feeding the fish ( they more
or less hibernate over winter)! he is very food obsessed.
Had 2 dogs before, they never went near the pond.
He is a sensitive soul and I am trying to do the right thing
Never knew Lurchers could be such fun :)
Click to expand...

My question is where you are when all this is going on?

The behaviour of this dog is normal, and that is the place to start (comparisons with other dogs you have had don't stand up, because just like us, all dogs are individuals and need to be treated as such).

What your dog needs to find out (not learn) is not that this pond causes agonising pain (electric fence etc) - pain that may easily transfer to the garden, and to you, by the way - but that the pond is ok, not very interesting, and just part of the landscape.

The way to achieve that is to supervise your dog and to be responsible for him when he is in the garden. This means reverting to harness and lead in the garden every time you go out there. A long line is best, and you need to see calm behaviour in the garden before the lead comes off. Walk around the garden, watch how he interacts with everything. Pond is no big deal, let him walk over and watch. He will be excited at first, so keep a little bit of control with the long line, and if he stays there too long, staring, suggest you and he go and look at something else, maybe something a bit more interesting. Your aim is for the pond to become uninteresting, and for him to be able to see it, process it, dismiss it. I assure you, there is no dog that would not rather do this than get frantic about some fish food :)

I despair sometimes at the number of clients who let their dogs go unsupervised in the garden, even from day 1, just because the garden is well fenced. So many problems stem from dogs having free rein in a garden, left out there to their own devices, and in the case of young dogs, often anxious and overstimulated by the sounds and smells, neighbours etc that they need to deal with alone. The very person who is there to help out is probably watching from the kitchen window and running out every so often to stop the dog digging up the flower beds. This is just no way to go on, honestly.

Changing all of this is much harder when a habit has built up and if you adopt this approach, it may take months - in fact years - before the pond loses its appeal. If it's any help, one of my dogs was on lead in the garden for 18 months before he figured out that pigeons were not that interesting and there was no need to chase them. It does mean for me that being out in the garden with him now is an absolute delight, because he mooches around and generally lies on the grass and enjoys the view. It's lovely to see him (and the pigeons) relaxed around each other.

I would say, that's your goal, not zoomies and nonsense barking at neighbours, chasing cats and eating fish food. Most definitely a better life for any dog, watching the world go by when he's at home. There's plenty of scope for running on his regular walks, but keep home and garden as his safe space where he doesn't haven't to deal with much, would be my advice.
 
I hear what you are saying, but he gets 2 good walks, rain or shine, I am not going to stop
him doing zoomies to burn off any energy left, he is young and thats what young happy dogs do,
that is not a problem,he doesnt nuisance bark at neighbours dogs, and is pretty well behaved overall.
He does have an inbuilt naughty streak, whether it comes with the breed or just the way I interact with him, probably
a bit of both .
Being a lurcher he has boundless energy, he is reactive to other dogs on walks but improving but I cant let off the lead during walks at the moment
Please bear in mind he is a rescue dog, had a horrible start in life and like all rescue dogs he came with baggage.
I have put so much work into him,gaining trust and giving him security and he is a lovely dog now.
The pond thing is the only problem.
I am trying a beeping and vibrating collar with him now (not a shocking collar), early signs are good, he isnt scared
of it but has worked out that if it activates,he might be better to stop whatever he is doing as an his dad will be coming
to see what hes up to, I have cameras all over the garden,and watched him eating fish food this morning, I beeped
him and he stopped and walked away from the pond,
I have put new plants in the pond, in 3 months time they will grow and cover all the area at the back of the pond and he
will not be able to access it.
I do appreciate your comments and read them carefully
This was earlier today, he has not been back to the pond since
https://ring.com/share/1ef1585b-6b99-47fd-8e41-069cc4ebec3d
 
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Be very careful even with the beep vibrating collars ...especially with a saluki cross ...these dogs really are super sensitive totally different to other breeds ..their hearing is 8X better than ours ..my friend used one of these and took a very long time to regain her dogs trust .....
 
All of the dog rescues home check for Would Not Home a dog to anyone who uses so called training collars ....
 
Montysdad said:
I hear what you are saying, but he gets 2 good walks, rain or shine, I am not going to stop
him doing zoomies to burn off any energy left, he is young and thats what young happy dogs do,
that is not a problem,he doesnt nuisance bark at neighbours dogs, and is pretty well behaved overall.
He does have an inbuilt naughty streak, whether it comes with the breed or just the way I interact with him, probably
a bit of both .
Being a lurcher he has boundless energy, he is reactive to other dogs on walks but improving but I cant let off the lead during walks at the moment
Please bear in mind he is a rescue dog, had a horrible start in life and like all rescue dogs he came with baggage.
I have put so much work into him,gaining trust and giving him security and he is a lovely dog now.
The pond thing is the only problem.
I am trying a beeping and vibrating collar with him now (not a shocking collar), early signs are good, he isnt scared
of it but has worked out that if it activates,he might be better to stop whatever he is doing as an his dad will be coming
to see what hes up to, I have cameras all over the garden,and watched him eating fish food this morning, I beeped
him and he stopped and walked away from the pond,
I have put new plants in the pond, in 3 months time they will grow and cover all the area at the back of the pond and he
will not be able to access it.
I do appreciate your comments and read them carefully
This was earlier today, he has not been back to the pond since
https://ring.com/share/1ef1585b-6b99-47fd-8e41-069cc4ebec3d
Click to expand...
I appreciate your reply, and can see that your 'solution' has worked for you. Believe me, I can understand why you are concerned about your koi carp too. But you did have options about how to handle it, and for a lot of people who admire and respect dogs as the extraordinary species they are, you did not choose well.

From my perspective, you have crossed a line here, and given yourself the impression that any problems with your dog in the future can be resolved using punishment. That changes your relationship with this dog forever.

This is sad for any human-canine relationship, but particularly so for a dog who you say has already had 'a terrible life'. I note that he is already 'reactive' to other dogs. Often, that is linked to a lack of confidence. The use of a punishment collar will be detrimental to his confidence and likely make that reactivity worse. How can a dog trust the world when an unpleasant event happens suddenly and out of the blue, for no reason? Will you be tempted to use punishment for his reactivity too, I wonder? For example, you say that when he gets buzzed by thr collar, the effect on him is he thinks "he might be better to stop whatever he is doing as an his dad will be coming". So already there is a threatening aspect to your presence. I would be absolutely mortified if a dog of mine ever thought I was approaching them with anything but my deep affection and respect.

No doubt your beautiful dog will survive this treatment, and no doubt you will feel satisfied because you got the result you wanted. But this I do know: in your heart you know you have caused this dog discomfort and fear, and sorry to say, that is a stain on the relationship you could have had with him, had you decided to work with him, instead of looking for a quick, punitive fix.
 
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I think you are being a little hard on me, I posted the original question about the possibility of using an electric
fence to see what peoples views were and from reading the replies,I now accept it was not the right solution and
will not do it.
I cant stress enough how dangerous the pond could be for him, there have been many cases of death and injury
to animals unable to get out of netted ponds and I care for him too much not to find an answer.
Having had two other dogs at this house with no pond problems, it something I was not expecting with this rescue
dog,One thing I didnt mention is that he is food obsessed, I am working on that but its the main reason why he is doing this.
Looking at the video, you can see he didnt stop due to fear,but the fact that I knew what he was up to,
and in no way was he scared.He was probably more sulky because he couldnt carry on pinching the food.
I know the breed are sensitive but he trusts me and a couple of beeps didnt affect him one bit apart from
taking him away from a dangerous situation, he is snuggled up to me now as he is every night.
I am no way an expert with dogs but have had 6 over the last 50 years, and I understand the importance
of gaining and maintaining a dogs trust, its the foundation of your relationship with them,and no way would
I betray that trust but there are times when boundaries have to be set and in this case I dont have the luxury
of time to find the perfect solution.I have loved and cared for all my dogs deeply and consider myself to
a responsible owner.
 
I appreciate that you have a problem there with the pond. And I know I'm being hard you. Let me explain why.

What I am saying is that everything you bring up could be resolved without using punishment. For example, if he is supervised in the garden, he won't fall in and drown. If you want to set clear boundaries, a harness and long line is a really effective way of doing that. And so on.

We will probably never agree, because for me, using punishment is anathema and always counterproductive, ultimately. I've watched the video and what you have is a dog who is simply curious about the pond and interested in eating the fish food, which he does with some perseverance.

Curiosity and perseverance are two of the most important survival skills dogs have. They are really important for their development, and are skills they will use when out and about. Punishing a dog because he is using his natural life skills just seems all wrong to me, as well as unnecessary. I just could never do that to a dog.

I believe that punishment changes the relationship between a person and a dog, even when the dog doesn't figure out that the person is the source of the punishment. In your heart of hearts, knowing you inflicted fear and discomfort on a dog changes everything.
 
Feverfew, how does this differ from, say, a baby learning that touching a hot radiator is not a good idea? I don't of course mean one hot enough that it would only cause discomfort, not pain, but just 'Oh, OK, I don't think I'll do that again because I don't like the consequences'? After all, exploring everything is also a baby's natural life skill.This level of comfort may cause discomfort, but not fear.

But yes, a 'strange' sensation on a sensitive sighthound's body with no apparent cause has a good chance of causing fear.
 
Can you honestly say that he showed one bit of fear in the video, he knows he shouldnt have been in
there and the beep just alerted him to the the fact that I knew what he was up.
I also dont believe in punishment has any part in a dogs training but is a beep any worse than shouting him to stop when he is a dangerous situation.
The collar does have a vibrate function, I didnt use that,just sound, he is dog that
happily sleeps through thunderstorms,has a listen to the thunder then goes back
to sleep
 
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