Desex & age of pet - why do shelters neuter pups?

[Ari_RR]

If there’s another dog within visual distance, they are instantly distracted - if it’s a M, they want to investigate immediately & challenge him, if it’s a F, they want to investigate immediately & flirt - either way, they can’t concentrate for 2-seconds in succession.
They leg—lift in places they never did before, such as on upholstered furniture & the outfacing corners of walls, the kitchen island, the kitchen trash can or recycle bin, wheels of cars, strangers’ trouser legs, yadda-yadda.
They hump anything that holds still or catches their fancy, which can include hassocks, pillows, human limbs, spayed F dogs, M dogs of any repro status, pups of either sex, stuffed toys... in short, they exhibit all the prototypical M dog behaviors, but magnified in intensity & frequency.

That's a very colorful description of intact dogs
Good thing they are not all like that.

 

[Teddy560]

My friend has intact samoyed and he is a dream. I know Ted would behave as Terry described was he intact lol.

 

[leashedForLife]

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Well, @Ari_RR , some intact-M dogs are low-key by nature, & don’t display such behavior once they are beyond that super-male phase, reach about 15-MO, & their testosterone secretion falls to normal adult-M levels.
But, while they are in it, flooded with androgens, most male dogs are very frankly a pain in the butt to live with, train, or simply be around - remember, when they’re out in the real world, the neighbors, random passersby, & all the local dogs have to put up with their androgen-fueled antics, too.

I’ve resorted to such tactics as standing on the leash with both feet planted whenever I stand still, to keep certain Ms from getting their forefeet off the ground, as if i didn’t, they’d mount & clasp passing human legs. This doesn’t make them popular.
Preventing the behavior is much easier than peeling them off, once attached - & less fraught, too, as some humpomatics get nasty when others attempt to interrupt their lustful endeavors.
I don’t want to get bitten while detaching an over-amorous M from anyone, or for that matter, from anyTHING, & yes, some Ms get possessive & guardy.


An episode of Dr Pol on Nat’l Geo channel included a French Bulldog with a nasty-looking sore on the tip of his penis, which couldn’t fully retract into his prepuce anymore, due to the swollen end & lumpy red “boil” capping it.
He’d been obsessively licking it, & humping objects, & once it got sore, he licked even more obsessively, thus further damaging tissue... so it was treated temporarily, but Doc Pol explained that, to stop future recurrence, he really needed to be surgically neutered.

His [early-20s male] owner didn’t want to neuter him, despite the explanation that this would alleviate self-injuring compulsions. // He “didn’t want to take it away” from him.
He was eventually persuaded, Frenchie got the snip, & his lipstick slid back into the sheathe.


It’s important to bear in mind that dogs don’t fantasize, nor do they yearn for “what could have been” - spayed Fs don’t dream about the litters they might have nursed, & neutered Ms don’t dream about the orgies they might have had, at the local dog-park.
Dogs live in the moment - HUMAN amputees may moan, “I’ll never dance again!”, after losing a leg, but 3-legged dogs just get up, & figure out how to move with their new limb configuration.

Ex-studs can still retain humpy habits, but it’s usually a now-&-then thing, not the anytime / anywhere randiness of a 9-MO male dog, thrashing about in the flood of testosterone.

Neutered Ms still can mount or hump, but it’s way-less common; some mount simply because they’re social dimwits who don’t know what else to do, when they get excited by the presence of another dog. Teaching them how to play, by introducing them to dogs who are very playful & sociable, is a pretty simple “cure”.

- terry

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[Buddy1]

Whether to neuter male dogs certainly is a controversial topic with many people having quite strong opinions so it is refreshing to read a forum that is able to discuss the topic politely. I have been put off using several forums where people have been deliberately made to feel as if they have ‘failed’ in some way because they have decided to neuter their dogs, while others have been vilified for keeping their dogs entire.

Personally, I feel the decision depends on individual circumstances and, in the end, it is the owner’s choice depending on what they feel is best for their dog and for them. We have decided to keep our dog entire – he is now 4 years old.

However, it does concern me when castration is sold as a ‘cure all’ for behavioural issues or as a prevention for unwanted behaviour (that the dog may never develop e.g. aggression). While I certainly believe that neutering can have positive benefits on some types of unwanted behaviour in some dogs, it is clearly not a ‘cure-all’ for every dog - the number of neutered male dogs we meet that have no recall, are dog reactive or continue to pester and mount (both female and male dogs) is testament to this!

Yes, I agree that adolescence did stretch our patience when our boy suddenly developed a case of ‘selective hearing’ to recall. But I would say that this is the case for most dog owners irrespective of their dog’s sex or if they have been neutered or not. When we are out walking and we see a dog bounding over to us from the other side of the field full of energy and excitement, I can pretty much guarantee that it is going to be an adolescent dog, but not necessarily an entire dog. However, I do think one issue we experienced during adolescence was as a result of him being entire (and raging with hormones!) and that was the reaction of some male dogs towards him, which could be quite aggressive. If I had my time over again, I would be more prepared for this. But the great thing about adolescence is that it is only temporary. With maturity and some extra training, we soon found that his recall returned and those certain male dogs lost interest. We still meet the occasional aggro neutered male that likes to strut his stuff around him, but my lad is very good at ignoring this and will walk away.

As for leshedForLife’s colourful description of an entire male – it did make me smile. Yes, I have certainly met dogs that fit that description, but have met many that do not (even during adolescence). Our lad (who is by no means perfect) has never cocked his leg inside the house, has never mounted a female bitch (even those we meet off lead and in season arrrggghhh), or challenged male dogs – neutered or entire. As much as I would like to take the credit for this, I can’t. Yes, I have put in time training him which has certainly helped, but I also know that I have made mistakes along the way and there are areas of his training we still need to work on! Instead, I would put his behaviour (or lack of unwanted behaviour) down to his temperament and therefore the result of his bloodlines – we were lucky to find a breeder that put temperament (as well as health) at the top of the list. This is why I think it is so important that people who are buying puppies (obviously not the case with rescue dogs) find reputable breeders who breed from dogs with sound temperaments. While this is still not going to provide you with 100% guarantee you will have a puppy with a perfect temperament, I believe it certainly gives you better odds than relying on castration to sort out unwanted behaviours.

 

[Ari_RR]

What @Buddy1 said!

 

[JudyN]

As first posts go, @Buddy1 , yours is a cracker! Welcome to the forum

 

[malwhit]

I agree here with Judy. I do fully understand why the shelters neuter so early - essentially they have to.

We have yet to neuter Harri who is coming up now to 18 months old. Although he's a rare breed and has a COI well below average, he fails to meet breed standard ( too much black, not enough tan) so is what is termed a "working" Welsh terrier. If we were breeding for temperament alone he'd be perfect but for a pedigree stud dog looks are everything.

At the moment we have no real need to neuter - his behaviour won't be improved by it and he's not going to be ever in a position to father a litter. His coat may suffer and his personality change. The sex hormones do more than just regulate the urge to reproduce and I'm not sure we yet fully understand the role they play. We would certainly reduce one set of health risks but it seems put him at risk of a different set.

The jury is very much out here at the moment.

In a rare breed, bring mis marked should not be top of a list of priorities when breeding.
I've owned a rare breed where colour is considered importarant and unfortunately temperament has suffered. I'd never own that breed again, and I can see why the breed is sadly vulnerable

Whether to neuter male dogs certainly is a controversial topic with many people having quite strong opinions so it is refreshing to read a forum that is able to discuss the topic politely. I have been put off using several forums where people have been deliberately made to feel as if they have ‘failed’ in some way because they have decided to neuter their dogs, while others have been vilified for keeping their dogs entire.

Personally, I feel the decision depends on individual circumstances and, in the end, it is the owner’s choice depending on what they feel is best for their dog and for them. We have decided to keep our dog entire – he is now 4 years old.

However, it does concern me when castration is sold as a ‘cure all’ for behavioural issues or as a prevention for unwanted behaviour (that the dog may never develop e.g. aggression). While I certainly believe that neutering can have positive benefits on some types of unwanted behaviour in some dogs, it is clearly not a ‘cure-all’ for every dog - the number of neutered male dogs we meet that have no recall, are dog reactive or continue to pester and mount (both female and male dogs) is testament to this!

Yes, I agree that adolescence did stretch our patience when our boy suddenly developed a case of ‘selective hearing’ to recall. But I would say that this is the case for most dog owners irrespective of their dog’s sex or if they have been neutered or not. When we are out walking and we see a dog bounding over to us from the other side of the field full of energy and excitement, I can pretty much guarantee that it is going to be an adolescent dog, but not necessarily an entire dog. However, I do think one issue we experienced during adolescence was as a result of him being entire (and raging with hormones!) and that was the reaction of some male dogs towards him, which could be quite aggressive. If I had my time over again, I would be more prepared for this. But the great thing about adolescence is that it is only temporary. With maturity and some extra training, we soon found that his recall returned and those certain male dogs lost interest. We still meet the occasional aggro neutered male that likes to strut his stuff around him, but my lad is very good at ignoring this and will walk away.

As for leshedForLife’s colourful description of an entire male – it did make me smile. Yes, I have certainly met dogs that fit that description, but have met many that do not (even during adolescence). Our lad (who is by no means perfect) has never cocked his leg inside the house, has never mounted a female bitch (even those we meet off lead and in season arrrggghhh), or challenged male dogs – neutered or entire. As much as I would like to take the credit for this, I can’t. Yes, I have put in time training him which has certainly helped, but I also know that I have made mistakes along the way and there are areas of his training we still need to work on! Instead, I would put his behaviour (or lack of unwanted behaviour) down to his temperament and therefore the result of his bloodlines – we were lucky to find a breeder that put temperament (as well as health) at the top of the list. This is why I think it is so important that people who are buying puppies (obviously not the case with rescue dogs) find reputable breeders who breed from dogs with sound temperaments. While this is still not going to provide you with 100% guarantee you will have a puppy with a perfect temperament, I believe it certainly gives you better odds than relying on castration to sort out unwanted behaviours.

What a good reply

In many cases, I think the owners should be neutered instead of their dogs to see if it stops their cocky and aggressive behaviour

 

[leashedForLife]

QUOTE, Ari_RR:

That's a very colorful description of intact dogs
Good thing they are not all like that.

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Actually, @Ari_RR , it’s a colorful description of intact-Ms during that OTT ‘super-male’ phase, which strikes at around 9-MO;
the peak lasts about 6 to 8-weeks, & then testosterone secretion gradually falls to adult-M norm between 12-MO & 15-MO, & stays there for the rest of the dog’s lifetime, or until he is neutered, when it falls sharply - but not to zero.

Testosterone never hits zero because the adrenal glands & pituitary also secrete androgens, but in Ms, the testes are the primary source; even Fs secrete testosterone, just not as much as Ms, & Ms also secrete estrogens - just not as much as Fs.
The balance of androgens to estrogens is shifted by desex in both sexes, but they are still distinctly F & M dogs- the balance is still tilted toward their birth sex; they are neither “neutral”, nor are they gender-switched.

Humans, too, all secrete both androgens & estrogens, again in differing ratios per their biological sex; Fs secrete more estrogens, Ms secrete more androgens.
That’s part of why gender & sexuality exists in such a broad spectrum in humans - heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual, etc. It’s a highly complex aspect of human behavior.

Dogs are simpler.
It is, however, important to note that learned sexually-driven behavior doesn’t magically disappear after desex; a dog who is bred just once may continue to be humpy when opportunity arises, & a dog who learned to leap past the human receiving a package & race down the street, won’t forget how after he’s neutered.

Manage 1st; then train, as Brian Kilcommons says, & I personally add, then by all means, continue to manage. Mgmt is critical in maintaining desired behaviors, & preventing unwanted ones... & that’s a lifelong issue.

- terry

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[JudyN]

Actually, @Ari_RR , it’s a colorful description of intact-Ms during that OTT ‘super-male’ phase, which strikes at around 9-MO;

Of some intact males at that age. Of all the intact males I've seen going through that stage - and there's been a fair few - not a single one has behaved anything like that. And if one was, I'd be wondering about diet, exercise, mental stimulation, frustration tolerance... all the things that contribute to generally OTT behaviours (including OTT sexual behaviours), and can be worked on without involving removing bits that can't be stuck back on again.

 

[leashedForLife]

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I will also here note that it isn’t “just shelters” or “only rescues” who neuter both sexes before they leave for new homes - more & more breeders offer neuter ops to their puppy & kitten buyers, & the surgery is done before the change of ownership.

Cat breeders in the UK are much more engaged in this than dog breeders, but in the USA, altho more cat breeders offer desexed kittens than dog breeders do desexed pups, it’s catching on with dog breeders.
Vets will cut their fees to do a litter wholesale, & pediatric desex is the least expensive option, as the dosages of meds & GA are determined by body mass; no animal will ever be smaller than it is in “childhood”, & the youngsters are on the table only briefly, for an average of 20-minutes under GA.

Any healthy pup or kittten who weighs 2# minimum can be neutered [this term applies to both sexes], & they bounce back up afterward with barely a pause in their activity, playing, eating, & growing.
I’m fairly confident that pediatric desex will become more common among UK dog breeders over the next 5 years - it completely eliminates the chance of “accidental” & for-profit breeding, as well as genuinely accidental litters due to poor Mgmt, lack of oversight, or silent heats / split heats / early matings.

Sperm can survive in the uterine envelope for 3 days, so bitches who are not yet in standing heat can be bred, & the sperm can meet the eggs in transit; TYING is not mandatory for pregnancy, a slip mating - when the dog mounts briefly & disengages - can still produce a litter.

I am endlessly thankful that humans, dogs, & cats do NOT do what chickens can:
Retain viable sperm for up to TWO YEARS after a single mating, & dole them out to produce fertile eggs... Imagine if a one-night encounter could produce a pregnancy, 24-mos later?!... or even a series, of 2 or 3 pregnancies?!... - the mind boggles.
A cat who had a single mating could produce 6 to 7 litters, across the 2 subsequent years, if she could hold those sperm in an active state, & a dog could have 4 litters from one mating.
Yikes.

Good thing for the planet, we aren’t all chickens.
- terry

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[Caro Perry]

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I’m fairly confident that pediatric desex will become more common among UK dog breeders over the next 5 years - it completely eliminates the chance of “accidental” & for-profit breeding, as well as genuinely accidental litters due to poor Mgmt, lack of oversight, or silent heats / split heats / early matings.


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I sincerely hope not.

Evidence is mounting that early neutering can lead to skeletal problems especially in large breed dogs.

 

[Buddy1]

I’m fairly confident that pediatric desex will become more common among UK dog breeders over the next 5 years - it completely eliminates the chance of “accidental” & for-profit breeding

Just a different view point. I am not so sure that this will be the case in the UK, at least not among many reputable breeders. As @Ari_RR has already said in a previous post, a good breeder makes sure they vet potential puppy owners thoroughly. One ‘friendly chat’ we had with a breeder felt more like the Spanish Inquisition! However, this grilling was only to ensure that we were the right owners for their puppy and, likewise, the puppy was the right dog for us. In addition, breeders of pedigree dogs can put endorsements on their puppies allowing them to have ‘a say’ in which of their dogs can be used for breeding. Obviously, an owner can still breed from their dog even if it has an endorsement, but the puppies cannot be registered with the Kennel Club and; therefore, will not command such a high price (a deterrent for the ‘for-profit’ breeder).

I also think many reputable breeders would be concerned about the impact widespread neutering of puppies would have on the future of breeding, as it would significantly reduce the choice of available dogs. Deciding whether a dog will be suitable to be used for breeding rests on many factors including temperament, health, breed standard, none of which can be determined in a puppy of 8 weeks old.

As for breeders who churn out puppies for profit, I doubt if they are going to cut their profit margins by paying to have their puppies neutered. Even if they did, these are not the breeders you would want to be buying a puppy from.

 

[leashedForLife]

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I will also add here a link to the RSPCA advice page to cat owners, concerning neutering.

Cats and Cat Neutering, Health and Welfare | RSPCA


They make a blanket recommendation that all Fs should be spayed “...before she is 4-months old, to protect her from getting pregnant while she’s still a kitten, herself”. [end quote]

They also advise that all Ms be neutered - “snipped” is the term they use - BUT... they do not say at what specific age M cats should be castrated. // Since spraying typically begins around 5 to 6-MO, U’d think they’d mention that... as neutered cats of either sex can still spray, but if they are desexed before they begin spraying, they are far-less likely to continue doing it, once neutered.
If the owner waits until their “kitten” is 8 to 12-MO to castrate him, the odds are significant that he’s already spraying, & moreover, he’s likely to continue to do so.

Out-of-the-litter-box voiding, whether it’s urine or feces, is the #1 reason that pet cats lose their homes entirely, & are surrendered to shelters, abandoned away from home, or banned from the house, becoming outdoor-only “pets”.

AFAIC, an outdoor-only “pet” who can’t be classed as livestock - a horse, pony, pig, goat, or similar - isn’t a PET at all. Cats are small animals, & they are at considerable risk from larger animals, plus of course the environmental hazards that all animals face: traffic, toxins, trauma, disease, & so on.
Malicious humans & other cats are also serious threats to outdoor cats; cats are far more territorial than dogs, & fight readily with other cats, or even with wildlife that they perceive as intruders in their domains.
Infections, abscesses, stitches & drains, antibiotics & confinement, are the common result of fights.

Owners of cats who are allowed to roam should carefully examine their cats several times a week, head to tail, to check for any nicks or punctures that may ripen into abscesses within 48 hours, & look for wounds hidden by their hair.
Cat bites & claw punctures are notorious for serious infections - the sooner they are found, seen by a vet, cleaned & treated, the less likely there will be a medical crisis & a much bigger vet bill.

- terry

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[PWDmum]

leashedForLife said: ↑
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I’m fairly confident that pediatric desex will become more common among UK dog breeders over the next 5 years - it completely eliminates the chance of “accidental” & for-profit breeding, as well as genuinely accidental litters due to poor Mgmt, lack of oversight, or silent heats / split heats / early matings.

I doubt that very much, it would be completely alien for most good breeders to suggest to new owners to spay/ neuter young pups, infact with more and more evidence of the damage early spay and neuter can cause , breeders would,be more inclined to encourage new owners to wait as long as possible before spay , neuter.