Can Anyone Tell Me Why?

[kris]

no as a rsponsible breeder i would not do that.apart from anything else from a legal standpoint you must explain this to the potential owner and get them to sign that they understand the conditions of sale and sign the contract knowing full well what they mean as you have had them explained to you.anyone who puts endorsements on pups and doesnt tell the prospective owners is on a hiding to nothing.as for getting an endorsement lifted and put back again i dont know the answer to this as ive never done it.i have had folk sign saying they will only mate a bitch with my full knowledge and approval of the stud dog used.but tbh i dont know if even this can be enforced in law.i mean what if they go ahead and use a dog you dont approve of ?can you sue them and if so what for?i would hope anyone would ask my advice and opinion and only mate to a dog i approve of but if they dont i dont think theres a lot i can do. :unsure: but i wouldnt be happy about it :angry:

 

[dessie]

But surely, unless you own the bitch (i.e. let it go on breeding terms) the new owner is free legally to do whatever they will with it. That also includes selling her on or whatever. However many bits of paper you get people to sign, once they have bought the dog and it is in their ownership they are free to do as they wish with it. It works both ways I'm afraid.

 

[Seraphina]

as a breeder who has xrayed and scored and tested her dogs i think i have the right to endorse a pups papers not to be bred from and not suitable for showing.i think as a responsible breeder who has spent many years researching and chatting to others about certain lines and faults etc i think ive earned the right to have some control over whether pups ive bred should in turn be bred from.i once sold a show quality bitch to a couple who befriended me and my family over a period of time.they did a lot of winning with this bitch and cos i trusted them that theyd ask me who to breed her to when the time came i didnt endorse.they subsequently bred her to a persons stud dog that i considerd totally unsuitable and only told me after theyd mated her.to say i was furious would be an understatement. :angry: but the deed having been done there was nothing i could do about it.after that i endorsed everything.and only lifted them when i could have a say in who a bitch was mated to or when a stud dog was used.it IS  about control.but after all the years of blood sweat and tears i put into my breed i dont see why i should just hand that on a plate for someone else to ruin. :thumbsup:

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Absoluyely, Kris and i do the same, but i am sure you tell the buyer about it, just as i do.

And that is the point here in this case. ecknelly was sold a pup under false pretences.

 

[Seraphina]

Ecknelly; has the breeder actually seen your dog? OK it sounds as if this mating would be outcross but I would want to first see the dog before I would be making final judgement.

In any case; she should have told you about the endorsement. Write a letter to the KC and ask for opinion. In Oz we have here different KC for each state, and i know that at least in one state there is now a rule, where on a bases of stautory declaration dogs ownership can be transfered fully into the owners name. Not many people know of it, but it happened to a breeder i know couple of years ago. I wonder if the UK KC can do it as well. :luck: :luck: :luck:

It is just not fair. Pup is not something that you can take back when you discover that you are not getting what you thought. Not to spell out the conditions is fraudulent.

BUT the breeder may be right and your dog may not be suitable for your bitch. In that case it would be wise to listen to her advice ( provided she is an knowledgeble breeder) and use another dog.

 

[ecknnelly]

[

BUT the breeder may be right and your dog may not be suitable for your bitch. In that case it would be wise to listen to her advice ( provided she is an knowledgeble breeder) and use another dog.

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i agree completely, that's why we bought two kc reg whippets, but unfortunately, not knowing enough about line breeding and not seeking proper advice prior to the purchase of Nell, we 'thought' the breeder would advise about their pups.

if the breeder had told us of the restrictions and the reason then I would have been able to choose. a) buy the pup for companionship or b) keep on searching for a potential mate for eck.

I would have kept seaching for a pup from a compatible line and perhaps they still may have not been a good match. But any accidents would be less stressfull.

The breeder knew about eck, i made sure of it prior to even viewing the pups.

It's a shame that breeders (not all, but from this first experience) :thumbsup: can offload unwanted KC pups to anyone who wants to buy them without giving proper advice and information.

It seems that recouping costs of having a litter is a key factor in line bredding too, which seems to be an expensive process.

This is my first experience of buying a bitch pup and apart from the endorsement, she is wonderful... in the long term we'll ensure it will work out, I still feel that we've been put in an tricky situation by the breeder.

I would welcome and seek adive re mating Nell (should this ever happen) but it will difficult to go back to this breeder seeking advice on a mate, (being sceptical)especially if one of their dogs (4) is the suitable match!

thanks for all the great chat

 

[Karen]

Why not be advised by the breeder for a first litter then use Eck for a later one for yourself?

 

[kris]

But surely, unless you own the bitch (i.e. let it go on breeding terms) the new owner is free legally to do whatever they will with it.  That also includes selling her on or whatever.  However many bits of paper you get people to sign, once they have bought the dog and it is in their ownership they are free to do as they wish with it.  It works both ways I'm afraid.

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thats the problem dessie.i dont think theres a lot you CAN do if they sign a contract and then go ahead and ignore your wishes.you could probably sue for breach of contract but i dunno if a)youd win and b)even if you did what damages could you claim? :unsure:

you arent the legal owner of the bitch so how could you claim for damages?i dont think you could

 

[kris]

[

The breeder knew about eck, i made sure of it prior to even viewing the pups.

It's a shame that breeders (not all, but from this first experience)  :thumbsup: can offload unwanted KC pups to anyone who wants to buy them without giving proper advice and information. 

It seems that recouping costs of having a litter is a key factor in line bredding too, which seems to be an expensive process. 

This is my first experience of buying a bitch pup and apart from the endorsement, she is wonderful... in the long term we'll ensure it will work out, I still feel that we've been put in an tricky situation by the breeder.

I would welcome and seek adive re mating Nell (should this ever happen) but it will difficult to go back to this breeder seeking advice on a mate, (being sceptical)especially if one of their dogs (4) is the suitable match!

thanks for all the great chat

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the breeder might have known about your other dog but did she know you intended mating them at a later date?if she did and didnt tell you about the restrictions then thats unforgiveable.but did you make it clear about mating her to your dog?i think this should have been discussed at the time of visiting the breeder and talking about the pups,not after the point of sale.

to say she was offloading unwanted pups is a bit sharp i think.why do you think they were unwanted and being offloaded?

recouping costs of a litter in linebreeding isnt a factor for most breeders .any litter being bred and reared correctly is an expensive process.whether linebred or outcrossed or inbred.this doesnt come into it in my opinion.if i paid myself 2 pounds an hour for rearing a litter of pups id still be out of pocket!to say nothing about feeding a pregnant bitch,vets fees,puppies food and vets bills,etc etc etc. :thumbsup:

 

[Seraphina]

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It seems that recouping costs of having a litter is a key factor in line bredding too, which seems to be an expensive process. 

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recouping costs of a litter in linebreeding isnt a factor for most breeders .any litter being bred and reared correctly is an expensive process.whether linebred or outcrossed or inbred.this doesnt come into it in my opinion.if i paid myself 2 pounds an hour for rearing a litter of pups id still be out of pocket!to say nothing about feeding a pregnant bitch,vets fees,puppies food and vets bills,etc etc etc. :thumbsup:

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When somebody starts talking about wanting to breed a litter or questions the price I ask for my pups I give them list of expensise associated with having a litter;

1- pre mating check up and swab, antibiotic course if necessary

2- stud fee plus the cost of flying the bitch to the dog

3- doubling and then tripling of the feeding bill for the bitch from about mid pregnancy until weaning

4- birth - if all goes well, just a post natal check,( but if things go wrong caesarian section at 1am Sunday costs thousands)

5- feeding the pups, worming once a week, in cool weather the heater going 24 hours a day, several hot water washing machine loads of puppy bedding a day, gallons of disinfectant

6- litter registration, vaccination and microchipping

I would not even attempt to add the hours I spend cleaning.

 

[Seraphina]

The thing is that if i want to have a litter from my bitch, I look for the BEST dog for her that I can find. I will fly her inerstate if necessary. I would never use a dog just because I have him in my yard. Nor would I be happy to agree to buy a bitch with the proviso I will breed her to the best the breeder has in her yard. There is one thing to get a good advice on sellecting the sire and another one to be told it has to be one of this person's dogs. That is really not any better than using your own eck - or the reasoning behind it is not. :wacko:

 

[jean.dunbar]

The notes on the K.C. Litter Registration Form say: "Breeders wishing to endorse any puppies should make themselves fully aware of the complete regulations contained in the Krnnel Club Year Book relating to the use of endorsements, including the need to obtain written and signed confirmation that the prospective new owner is aware of the endorsement(s)."

The form can be downloaded from www.the-kennel-club.org.uk

None of this seems to have happened in this case. Not sure what can be done. Perhaps K.C. can offer advice.

 

[ecknnelly]

the breeder might have known about your other dog but did she know you intended mating them at a later date?if she did and didnt tell you about the restrictions then thats unforgiveable.but did you make it clear about mating her to your dog?i think this should have been discussed at the time of visiting the breeder and talking about the pups,not after the point of sale.

If you read my first query......I did make it clear and I also made it clear I was looking for advice, prior to the first visit by telephone. I am not attacking breeders, I was seeking opinion and if thi had happened before.

 

thanks to many helpful replies, i am much more informed and this has raised many more questions.

to say she was offloading unwanted pups is a bit sharp i think.why do you think they were unwanted and being offloaded?

I put it this way because,

1: she said that she would be choosing pups she wanted to keep and selling off the others

 

2: she called earlier than stated to say that pups were ready for collection in two days and we had to collect them on the day as they were costing her a fortune in feed

 

3: when we visited the pups at 4 weeks we had stated an interest in one of three, waiting to see which ones the breeder wanted to keep and to see how they would grow, this did not seem a problem at the time, when she called and offered us a pup the choice was ours.

 

she called on tues eve, i returned her call on thrus morning and one of the pups we had discussed was already gone, she was annoyed that i had not called back immediately and said that the pup had to go by the weekend as she had to get rid of them, and that people had let her down in the past.

On no occassion prior to visits (2) during any of the four telephones calls, discussing the pups, our home or anything else did this breeder indicate the endorsment, which is my query. I did not sign anything, and was taking whatever advice this breeder was offering. As a responsible person knowing i had a dog at home, knowing I had limited experience, she should have told me everything, whether she assumed I wanted to breed, mate or not.

 

as buyers are paying for the pups that are not keepers, there is no 'handing anything to anybody on a plate' that is surely part and parcel of choosing to breed whippets or any line/breed.

 

I am now assuming that breeders cannot and do not want to keep every pup from a litter, so what happens to the pups the breeder does not want?

 

giving them away, would be handing your hard work over on a plate. selling them to homes which could have a bad match for the bitch pups IMO is irresponsible (if the issue of mating and endsorsments is not covered prior to purchase)

 

In my line of work it can be cause very devastating effects to assume anything, that is why I ask questions prior to commitment and make clear any commitments people are taking on with me, but as the buyer I can only ask question I know to ask, it is up to the experienced person to raise questions or queries that are also relevant.

recouping costs of a litter in linebreeding isnt a factor for most breeders .any litter being bred and reared correctly is an expensive process.whether linebred or outcrossed or inbred.this doesnt come into it in my opinion.if i paid myself 2 pounds an hour for rearing a litter of pups id still be out of pocket!to say nothing about feeding a pregnant bitch,vets fees,puppies food and vets bills,etc etc etc. :thumbsup:

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unfortunately the impression my experience has left me with is that this breeder did want to recoupe as quickly as possible. and by emmiting to tell me about the endorsement (which by the way I agree with, esp. reasons why and now that I know, the right of the breeder to do so) :thumbsup: But it is essential that the breeder tells the buyer prior to purchase. I believe this breeder did not because she knew we would not buy the pup, which in hindsight they seemed to desperate to sell, they had 10 pups three of which they were keeeping untils 12 weeks and then they were choosing one and putting the other two up for sale.

 

These pups were advertised in papers as well as introductions, they did not have potential homes/buyers prior to being born. The price was reduced the longer the pups were with the breeder.

 

I am extactic to have little Nell I could not be without her now, and if people like me who want KC reg pups as pets then this is part of the cycle that allows breeders to breed/show/race/course the best of their best dogs. and so the world goes round.

 

:thumbsup:

 

[ecknnelly]

Why not be advised by the breeder for a first litter then use Eck for a later one for yourself?

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I feel a bit sceptical of this breeder as i feel her lack of advice in the first place has it's own consecquences.

I will search out a breeder who rep is second to none to get adivce on mating Nell if she should or if we will go down that line later on.

 

[ecknnelly]

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It seems that recouping costs of having a litter is a key factor in line bredding too, which seems to be an expensive process. 

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recouping costs of a litter in linebreeding isnt a factor for most breeders .any litter being bred and reared correctly is an expensive process.whether linebred or outcrossed or inbred.this doesnt come into it in my opinion.if i paid myself 2 pounds an hour for rearing a litter of pups id still be out of pocket!to say nothing about feeding a pregnant bitch,vets fees,puppies food and vets bills,etc etc etc. :thumbsup:

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When somebody starts talking about wanting to breed a litter or questions the price I ask for my pups I give them list of expensise associated with having a litter;

1- pre mating check up and swab, antibiotic course if necessary

2- stud fee plus the cost of flying the bitch to the dog

3- doubling and then tripling of the feeding bill for the bitch from about mid pregnancy until weaning

4- birth - if all goes well, just a post natal check,( but if things go wrong caesarian section at 1am Sunday costs thousands)

5- feeding the pups, worming once a week, in cool weather the heater going 24 hours a day, several hot water washing machine loads of puppy bedding a day, gallons of disinfectant

6- litter registration, vaccination and microchipping

I would not even attempt to add the hours I spend cleaning.

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There was no qubbling with me on the price of our pup and we had to vaccinate and microchip her ourselves.

It is a very expensive and time comsuming business and I would think that this prevents people taking it up are a money making venture.

 

[Seraphina]

This breeder sounds pretty awful. While feeding the pups costs a lot, feeding pup another few days or even weeks is really totally insignificant in the whole scheme of things. This breeder sounds as if she is trying to re-coup every penny she can. Although I should have pointed out that here in OZ it has been always expected that a breeder vaccinate their litters, and now it is a law that they have to be also microchipped before they are sold. I beleive that is not the case in the UK.

I think you should point out that as she did not tell you about the endorsement, did not follow the KC rule about getting you to sign that you know about it, you want her to remove the endorsement. DO IT IN WRITING, and keep records of when you posted it, give her a time limit (2 weeks), make it perfectly clear that you are not going to forget about it. If you do not get a possitive response write to the KC. Do not sign anything about only using a dog she approves of. Tell her that you will go to shows and talk to other breeders (and do that) and when the time comes you will ask for advice from more experienced breeders, including her.

If you sign that you use only dog she approves, she may just not approve any.

 

[Jillikins]

Hi

The owner has put what is called an endorsement which is placed on the record of the dog.

It is called a progeny and does not allow registration of future puppies with the kennel club.This only stops registration of the puppies so should you want to breed your dog then you can but unfortunately will not have registration papers.

Breeders that endorese any puppies should make themselves fully aware of the complete regulations contained in the kennel club year book relating to the use of endorsements, including the need to obtain written and signed confirmation that the prospective new owner is aware of the endorsement(s).

Hope this helps

Jane

 

[larv]

Hello, i recently bought a bitch pup, we had been looking for months and found one fairly locally, which would be ready for collection in June allowing us all summer to settle her in before starting uni again.  We have a dog whippet already and had thought that one day (not in the near future) perhaps pups may be an option.  Although this is dependant on many factors.  Both our whippets are pedigrees, our dog comes from a long line of champions and when we bought our girl we were given a five generation certificate of her breeding.
I sent off the owner transfer papers to the kennel club for registration and when I recieved the papers back, I saw an endorsement, I did not know what this was as there is nothing on our boy's papers, so I called the KC and found out that the breeder has places a restiction on the girl disallowing her pups to be KC registered.

The breeder did not mention this when we went to see the pups on the first visit, nor when we picked her up a few weeks later.

Can anyone tell me the protocol for this, should they have told us so that we could have made a informed deicsion to buy a pup from them?

Is it to prevent puppies being brought into the world purely to sell?

Is it to prevent any of her pups being shown in competition?

I really don't know why and the breeder is not being very responsive.

any thought anyone?

thanks

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[larv]

Hello, i recently bought a bitch pup, we had been looking for months and found one fairly locally, which would be ready for collection in June allowing us all summer to settle her in before starting uni again.  We have a dog whippet already and had thought that one day (not in the near future) perhaps pups may be an option.  Although this is dependant on many factors.  Both our whippets are pedigrees, our dog comes from a long line of champions and when we bought our girl we were given a five generation certificate of her breeding.
I sent off the owner transfer papers to the kennel club for registration and when I recieved the papers back, I saw an endorsement, I did not know what this was as there is nothing on our boy's papers, so I called the KC and found out that the breeder has places a restiction on the girl disallowing her pups to be KC registered.

The breeder did not mention this when we went to see the pups on the first visit, nor when we picked her up a few weeks later.

Can anyone tell me the protocol for this, should they have told us so that we could have made a informed deicsion to buy a pup from them?

I think you have been conned.  I would never sell a puppy with endosments WITHOUT INFORMNING THE PURCHASER. Sue the breeder or demand a refund or the endorsement should be lifted.  It also begs the question what hereditery defects might the puppy have (Unlikeley in whippets), which you haven't been told about, which causes the breeder to add an endorsement.

Is it to prevent puppies being brought into the world purely to sell?

Is it to prevent any of her pups being shown in competition?

I really don't know why and the breeder is not being very responsive.

any thought anyone?

thanks

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[wilfred]

to say she was offloading unwanted pups is a bit sharp i think.why do you think they were unwanted and being offloaded?
I put it this way because,

1: she said that she would be choosing pups she wanted to keep and selling off the others

2: she called earlier than stated to say that pups were ready for collection in two days and we had to collect them on the day as they were costing her a fortune in feed

3: when we visited the pups at 4 weeks we had stated an interest in one of three, waiting to see which ones the breeder wanted to keep and to see how they would grow, this did not seem a problem at the time, when she called and offered us a pup the choice was ours.

she called on tues eve, i returned her call on thrus morning and one of the pups we had discussed was already gone, she was annoyed that i had not called back immediately and said that the pup had to go by the weekend as she had to get rid of them, and that people had let her down in the past.

I am frankly appalled at this "breeder's" attitude. Anyone breeding a litter should be prepared to keep pups as long as necessary to ensure good homes - certainly not a case of "collect them now as they are costing a fortune to feed".

Why the heck should she be annoyed that you couldn't return her call (of Tuesday evening) until Thursday morning, especially given that she was phoning you earlier than agreed previously. You could have been away for a couple of days - or was it part of her "agreement" also that you should sit by the phone and not desert your post, just on the off-chance she might call??

From your above comments, she sounds a bit arrogant, I think. Let's hope all her pups were fortunate enough to land in good homes like the one you took. Money seems to have been her driving factor in this.

 

[chelynnah]

to say she was offloading unwanted pups is a bit sharp i think.why do you think they were unwanted and being offloaded?
I put it this way because,

1: she said that she would be choosing pups she wanted to keep and selling off the others

2: she called earlier than stated to say that pups were ready for collection in two days and we had to collect them on the day as they were costing her a fortune in feed

3: when we visited the pups at 4 weeks we had stated an interest in one of three, waiting to see which ones the breeder wanted to keep and to see how they would grow, this did not seem a problem at the time, when she called and offered us a pup the choice was ours.

she called on tues eve, i returned her call on thrus morning and one of the pups we had discussed was already gone, she was annoyed that i had not called back immediately and said that the pup had to go by the weekend as she had to get rid of them, and that people had let her down in the past.

I am frankly appalled at this "breeder's" attitude. Anyone breeding a litter should be prepared to keep pups as long as necessary to ensure good homes - certainly not a case of "collect them now as they are costing a fortune to feed".

Why the heck should she be annoyed that you couldn't return her call (of Tuesday evening) until Thursday morning, especially given that she was phoning you earlier than agreed previously. You could have been away for a couple of days - or was it part of her "agreement" also that you should sit by the phone and not desert your post, just on the off-chance she might call??

From your above comments, she sounds a bit arrogant, I think. Let's hope all her pups were fortunate enough to land in good homes like the one you took. Money seems to have been her driving factor in this.

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I'm also very shocked at her attitude. When the time comes for my first litter I'm prepared to keep them as long as I have to to find the right homes for them. And the timing has to be right for the new owner so if that means keeping a pup a day (or week) extra then so be it. Getting the right homes is far more important than how much it costs to feed them for an extra week or two. I'm appalled at that!

I don't know any breeder (or I don't think I know any breeder) who wouldn't keep a pup for an extra few days - or even a couple of weeks or so, if they felt the home was right. And if they didn't feel they had the right home, then they'd keep them as long as needed until they did.

Wendy