Trying to train terriers not to hunt...'sigh'..

[Finsky]

I have to admit that I am quite stuck at the moment with our girls and their behaviour in one particular aspect...the allotment.
We are lucky to have allotment behind our garden so it is only couple of meters hop from one gate to another to access the land. All our past dogs have been my companions while I've been pottering about..some more around my ankles than others but they've been good company and happy spend time there even for hours at the time....UNTILL now...started with our eldest one, Iida.
Iida has always been looking to get out and explore plots further away and managed to escape few times as well.
Eventually that was solved with terrier proof fencing. She has put it into test and so far so good, that's one problem solved BUT, she is constantly hunting to find rats/mice etc.(don't mind that) She had a chance to meet our old chickens when she was still teeny pup so she is not too bothered about the new ones.
Then came the pups...and this summer the new chickens. I've been trying and trying and trying again introduce the girls for the chickens, but ain't working.
Ella is ABSOLUTELY feather mad...it doesn't matter what sort bird it is, she WILL try to catch it and kill it and she is absolutely raving mad, totally blind to anything else around her but trying to get to the chickens. She climbs net fencing we put up as extra protection like a squirrel! I would have never believed it without seeing it on my own eyes!!!
Aila is a wussie...is ain't bothered about the chickens and I had my hopes up that she would make my allotment companion...but if she is there on her own with me...she just sits behind the gate whimpering and wanting to get back to the other two. Otherwise she is fine on the plot as long as we are all there, she ain't bothered about chickens.
It seems that the terrier hunting instinct is strong with the two or them so I suspect there is not much that can be done with it.
So what do you all reckon....is there anything that can be done with it? At the moments I'm getting fed up even trying to wear their excitement out (if it even can be done) as every day their reaction just seem to get even more excited and determined.
Maybe I just have to give up trying and accept that these few just are not destined to be that sort of dogs and keep them off from the allotment altogether?

Thoughts please......

 

[JudyN]

As the chickens aren't in imminent danger, I wonder what would happen if you gave her a brief timeout (behind a bit of fencing, or tethered) each time she touched the fence, similar to working on puppy biting? Maybe the chickens would end up boring, as she doesn't get to have any fun with them?

Thinking about it, Jasper used to show far too much interest in sheep. On one holiday we walked past them regularly (on lead) and he lost interest, but one day he saw an escaped lamb trying to get back into its field and was instantly switched on - so even if Ella regarded the chickens in the enclosure as boring, an escaped chicken might become lunch... and then one day Mr N walked J on lead too close to a flock and he flipped, and that was that. But then we don't have any local ones to practise on.

Do you need to work on spending more quality time with Aila so she can be comfortable away from the other two? It's not ideal for her to be so dependent on them.

 

[JoanneF]

You might find the book Hunting Together by Simone Mueller helpful. It's about working with your dogs' drives (to your advantage) rather than trying to suppress them.

 

[Finsky]

Thank you Ladies...I knew somebody will come up some ideas to try on. Every now and then we do take all the girls for a good walk individually and although Aila is not happy being 'alone' on the allotment with me, she is very happy going on walks and leave others behind...no missing the pack what so ever, so I'm not sure what that whimpy behaviour is all about...maybe because on the plot she can still hear the other two behind the hedge??
As for the other two...they seem to amplify each other to behave to their maximum madness.
This morning I took Iida for a long walk on her own and she was different creature altogether! She has always been VERY friendly with people and other dogs...but she even ignored a neaby cat and rather made fuss with a dog walker...she was rolling on her back to have tummy tickles!! 'Working terrier' my a** ..

 

[Finsky]

As the chickens aren't in imminent danger, I wonder what would happen if you gave her a brief timeout (behind a bit of fencing, or tethered) each time she touched the fence, similar to working on puppy biting? Maybe the chickens would end up boring, as she doesn't get to have any fun with them?

Thinking about it, Jasper used to show far too much interest in sheep. On one holiday we walked past them regularly (on lead) and he lost interest, but one day he saw an escaped lamb trying to get back into its field and was instantly switched on - so even if Ella regarded the chickens in the enclosure as boring, an escaped chicken might become lunch... and then one day Mr N walked J on lead too close to a flock and he flipped, and that was that. But then we don't have any local ones to practise on.

Do you need to work on spending more quality time with Aila so she can be comfortable away from the other two? It's not ideal for her to be so dependent on them.

Unfortunately majority of our chickens are still young and they are rather skittish...hence I think dogs find their reaction to their behaviour most interesting. In past our chickens have more and less sorted the too eager dogs themselves by giving a good peck on the nose.. serves right for coming too close One of our past dog, she was rather nervous of our feathered girls and when ever they were having 'out of pen time' in the garden...dog would sit quietly, like statue for not to attract attention to herself...only now and then having sneaky sniff at the chickens bottoms
I have only two older chickens at the moment and they are so placid that nothing prompts sharp reaction out of them...unfortunately

OH just returned from walk with Aila....and although she doesn't take notice of the chickens or our garden birds.. having just been to local park for the walk, she has been reported chasing pigeons away and trying to catch squirrels as well Not that wimp after all....
At the moment seeing any sense in their behaviour patterns proves to be bit tricky....other than they behave like terriers...

 

[Finsky]

You might find the book Hunting Together by Simone Mueller helpful. It's about working with your dogs' drives (to your advantage) rather than trying to suppress them.

I just had a look at this book and it sounds promising book. That is exactly what I would love to achieve....I do like them to do some hunting duties but not hunt things that are 'family'. I reckon I have my work cut out!

 

[Inka]

I do like them to do some hunting duties but not hunt things that are 'family'. I reckon I have my work cut out!

So you want your cake and to eat it too ........ and why not, however as you say you have your work cut out getting it with terriers.

It is always harder to achieve with more than one dog as there will be a 'leader' who doesn't necessarily 'do' the deed however will give the one that does the confidence to 'do' it......
I have a little one that as far as everyone who knows her is concerned she is a little darling, sweet and innocent however she 'instigates and drives' other dogs...they get in trouble and she stands aside pretending she is nothing to do with any of it.

 

[Finsky]

So you want your cake and to eat it too ........ and why not, however as you say you have your work cut out getting it with terriers.

It is always harder to achieve with more than one dog as there will be a 'leader' who doesn't necessarily 'do' the deed however will give the one that does the confidence to 'do' it......
I have a little one that as far as everyone who knows her is concerned she is a little darling, sweet and innocent however she 'instigates and drives' other dogs...they get in trouble and she stands aside pretending she is nothing to do with any of it.

Oh yes...having the tempted cake will taste the sweetest. I hope...
Hmm....I know exactly what you mean about the 'sweet and innocent little one'. Our little one does have those tendencies too, though she thinks I haven't noticed her sneaky ways. Being cute doesn't achieve 'get away free' card from me...OH might be a different story

 

[Finsky]

Nope, I admit there haven't been any progress with girls behaviour towards our chickens. So for time being I admit defeat and stop trying to control their prey drive.. well...mainly Ella's that is. If anything she is getting worst and utterly and blindly following her instinct and now it is disturbing her walks in the forest unless she is kept on short lead and walked on heal. At the moment there is no happy middle 'ground', just full hunting mode or very restricted walking. But at least the other 2 are little easier to handle with this issue....there is no cats/rats/mice on front of them where we walk about Maybe it will calm down as time goes on and this manic behaviour is just a phase when the new urges have surfaced. In mean while I keep girls off from the temptations and we do our outdoors in larger scale and on the allotment at all. Chickens do deserve some quiet life too....

 

[Hemlock]

Makes me chuckle when trainers come up with these amazing ideas. Fine with dogs that aren't bred from umpteen generations for hunting, but it won't happen with actual proper hunting dogs actually properly outdoors where huntable things exist. You can teach them what and what not to hunt, but you can't take the "hunt" out of them. As well to tell the tide to turn back.

Instead, it's about management. The lead, and keeping away from temptation. Having your head on a 360 degree swivel at all times. Being pro-active not re-active. And after many decades of doing that mostly successfully - you can still get caught out now and then!

 

[Finsky]

On a positive note...ours are not bothered about horses, sheep etc and after visit to local pond in a park where there is quite a number of birds...swans, ducks, geese etc. Even Ella had enough sense in her manic brain not to take those fearless 'predators'. Those birds are used to dogs and people and won't easily shift out of way when trying to walk buy
I reckon Ella has got the hunting urge worst out of the whole litter. I've heard that others have court rats and mice but even living in farm with other animals, feathered and furries....they soon learned not to hunt what is part of the 'family'. I wonder if it would have turned differently if she would have been exposed to feathered temptations from much earlier on..oh well. I live in hope that one day she is more manageable. We've had one previous terrier before who tried to 'sort out' the chickens and never gave up with it....though when she got older, those attempts were much more half hearted. Particularly when the last lot of birds with her were particularly fearless and would 'sharply' answer back. Life doesn't get boring with these sort of dogs...

 

[JacksDad]

Makes me chuckle when trainers come up with these amazing ideas. Fine with dogs that aren't bred from umpteen generations for hunting, but it won't happen with actual proper hunting dogs actually properly outdoors where huntable things exist. You can teach them what and what not to hunt, but you can't take the "hunt" out of them. As well to tell the tide to turn back.

Instead, it's about management. The lead, and keeping away from temptation. Having your head on a 360 degree swivel at all times. Being pro-active not re-active. And after many decades of doing that mostly successfully - you can still get caught out now and then!

I wouldn't personally recommend suppressing hunting behavior with the goal of never, ever seeing it. In addition to Hemlock's reasons, behaviorally speaking, suppressed behaviors have a tendency to show backup in ways and at times you are least prepared.

I would suggest a framework of management, safety behaviors (training alternate behaviors) that buy you time to prevent a tragedy, and some kind of legal outlet that address the "desire" to hunt.

I would also encourage having a qualified trainer who actually understands what hunting behaviors are, assess if this is actually predatory behavior vs something else going on. Why you might want to do this? Not all attempts to "get" another animal is actually hunting that other animal. I have a client express concern their dog was trying to hunt their cat. BUT after unpacking what was going on, nothing about the dog's behavior actually suggested food acquisition (which is the point of hunting) vs simply trying to deal with another animal that had shown it's self to be a threat to the dog. what distinguished the dog's behavior from hunting was the agitation and aggression behaviors. Hunting is not an aggressive behavior, might be messy, violent, even disturbing to some to watch, but it is not aggression. Aggression behaviors have the purpose of ending a threat or creating space. Hunting is about the next meal.

Might not be possible to find a trainer that is actually able to sort this out, many think they know what predatory behavior looks like, but often they do not. But if you can, it could be worth the investment.

Any training for this would also not require aversives. There is no need for use of pain via shock collars, prong collars or the like. Positivity reinforcing an alternate behavior is the foundation for improving the situation.

Two examples using a Jindo that WANTS to hunt cats. The Jindo is an older breed that has as a part of their breed purpose, to actually hunt. not find and point out the game is over there for the human to kill, but they got the whole hunting sequence of behaviors as a normal part of who they are as a breed.

Option 1. a variation of "find it". owner tosses treats ahead of their dog and dog is encouraged to find it.
this is good for on walks. redirects the dog's head away from possible prey, and gives them a "sort of hunt" outlet.

Option 2. good old fashion "look at me". uses the prey as a cue to "look at me", and earn a big paycheck of reinforcement. A key here is basically a jackpot level reinforcement every time. This leverages a redirect away, and a MUCH easier way to get reinforcement than the "cost" of the hunt.

Both depend on moving away from the prey. neither end the predatory behavior, trying to do so is no different than trying to train a dog not to breath. But it gives a mix of management, alternate behavior, and some level of control to get out of a situation before something unwanted happens.

This particular dog is also given the opportunity to hunt gophers in appropriate and safe places. rarely gets any, but that isn't the point, dog is given a chance to act on genetically programed behavior in a safe and legal way. there are also lots and lots of find the hidden bits of cooked chicken around the house games.

All this together makes a dog wired to hunt as a breed trait, livable, manageable, and not stressful to walk.

 

[Finsky]

Yayyy! Good news! Our hunters have all of the sudden decided our chickens are so 'boring' and they are not worth of the effort There is much more interesting things to find and dig out so the future is looking much more brighter. OH has been taking our hoodlums individually to the allotment daily basis and that has done the trick. They haven't been adding to each others excitement that way....so today for the first time they were there together...hunting rodents, that always come around when there is fallen fruit etc. on the ground and weather turning colder. Girls are now in their natural element....heads down, bum up and quietly sniffing and finding the targets...

 

[JudyN]

That's great to hear, Finsky

 

[RGC]

Yayyy! Good news! Our hunters have all of the sudden decided our chickens are so 'boring' and they are not worth of the effort There is much more interesting things to find and dig out so the future is looking much more brighter. OH has been taking our hoodlums individually to the allotment daily basis and that has done the trick. They haven't been adding to each others excitement that way....so today for the first time they were there together...hunting rodents, that always come around when there is fallen fruit etc. on the ground and weather turning colder. Girls are now in their natural element....heads down, bum up and quietly sniffing and finding the targets...

Just goes to show - patience works. Great news.

 

[Finsky]

Just goes to show - patience works. Great news.

Yep..and if patience doesn't...plain stuborness does the trick. Our youngsters are in that age that there can be noticeable differences in their behaviour and/or way of thinking showing up almost every week.
I was dreading for fire works last night...but they weren't that bad at all. Yes , they reacted for all the banging, but it was just some yapping and we actually went outside to listen and see some happening....with a BIG bag of training treats What drew most of our girls attention was next door's dog and its frightened yapping and running around garden...'what a sad example of a male terrier he is' After telling off that dog, we retired on front of telly and watched some loud war films...all the banging and shouting noises coming from telly doesn't bother them at all..never has, but try to put something on that brings on even a flicker of a dog(s) on screen and we have yapping match on front of it.... Harrington's adverts are the worst!