Newbie with 2 x 18 week old pups, help!! :)

[Tania Mattock]

Hi there!
I’m Tania and 39.
I’ve been looking for a place to be able to get various peoples advice on my two lovey Poochon’s. They are now 18 weeks old.
Sadly due to a back injury shortly after bringing them home it has meant our training has been very limited! They are from the same litter and both males.
I feel that I am setting them up to fail (if I haven’t already done so!) as I am unable to keep to a regular training plan.
Generally they are well behaved but I think due to literally being with me 24/7 they now have separation anxiety issues hate being left on their own at all and starting to show signs of bad behaviour, barking at anything and anyone. Won’t sleep in their crate, over work themselves at visitors.
I feel a little guidance from other fur baby owners may help me to help my pups succeed before it’s too late!!

 

[JudyN]

Welcome - I'm sorry you've hurt your back, as raising just one puppy is a lot of work even when you're fully fit! Have you heard of 'littermate syndrome'? It can be really difficult to raise two pups of the same age, as they will tend to focus on and become attached more to each other than to you. You really have to train both separately, as well as both together.

I have to ask... would you consider returning one pup to the breeder? A good breeder will be willing to take a pup back, particularly when it's still young. And it could be better all round, because if you struggle with training the pair, you could end up with two pups with issues that will be much harder to fix - and therefore much harder to rehome if you can't cope with them.

How much are you able to do in terms of walking them, playing with them and giving them mental stimulation? Are you able to pop out the house a few times a day to help with their separation anxiety? And are you likely to improve in the near future and be able to do more? We can give you advice on how to address all the various issues, but you need to be realistic about how much of this you are actually able to do.

 

[Tania Mattock]

Hi Judy
Thank you for your response! I haven’t been in contact with the breeder no I have had the pups since 9 weeks old would they actually consider taking one back at this time?
The main thing I struggle with is the consistent bending down there have been a few occassions I nearly couldn’t get back up which poses the issue when training pups.
I have tried to train separately but the other pup gets very barky and whining when away from his brother. On walks for the first time I walked them separately yesterday and on their own were so good! But together are hard work and as soon as one reacts it sets the other off. So thought by taking them out apart this would help train them how they should enjoy their walk and then take them out together?
I have 1-2-1 puppy training but an hour goes to quickly and I feel like I am not doing half the things I should be doing!
Ref leaving them I am trying to step away and slowly increase the time but I see to be at a stand still with this one is much worse than the other. I can go 15 mins but when I come back they go beserk and don’t know how to stop this behaviour. Same when My mum comes downstairs in the morning they go nuts. I’ve tried standing in front of them and saying no, turning my back on them, ignoring them and Mum just ends up sitting down with them whilst they lick and jump at her which isn’t helping!
I am determined to get them on track and I know this will take time and hard work. My disadvantage is not having a support system for advice.
Sorry but if a ramble

 

[JoanneF]

If you did want to return one, a good breeder will always take one back at any life stage as they consider themselves responsible for the lives they have brought into the world.

You will have to take them out separately and together, in fact everything takes over three times as much with littermates as you have to do everything with each dog separately and then again together. It is do-able but a lot more work.

For the separation and learning independence, the Flitting Game described about ⅔ of the way down this page is excellent.


https://www.thecanineconsultants.co.uk/post/separation-anxiety-fact-vs-fiction

Again, you would need to find a way of working with each dog separately - maybe while one is being walked alone by someone else?

 

[JudyN]

It might help to train a good 'settle', and always reward calm behaviour. Kikopup has an excellent video on teaching 'settle':

Giving a chew of some sort (e.g. raw bone) can also persuade them to settle down quietly rather than bounce all over visitors.

You say you can leave them for 15 minutes - are they actually calm when you leave, and while you are out? If they are OK with you being out but are just thrilled to see you come home, that's not so bad. If they bark, howl, toilet, fret, etc. while you're out though, then 15 minutes is too long. More on separation anxiety here: Separation anxiety

I also like impulse control as an exercise/game which encourages the dog to really think and control themselves rather than just following their impulses, which is a good general skill.

There's a good article on crate training by Emma Judson of Canine Consultants here: Crate-Training.docx - Microsoft Word Online But bear in mind that some dogs do better out of the crate than in - don't feel that you have to use one (or two).

What has your trainer suggested?

 

[Tania Mattock]

Thanks for the links we will view these and take note and add this our list.

When I have left them they have been calm and laying down. But at the moment they are reacting to any noise inside and out and start barking and working themselves up this is the most recent thing that’s been going on.

I took them both out for a walk today and they were good but as soon as they saw a person the barking and pulling started. Thankfully it was my neighbour and kids and noticed when they were given attention they seemed to stop barking but then started barking at the next person and stopped after being stroked and then barking at the next person and would not stop until they petted which they didn’t and just constant barking until we got them inside.

I’m trying to stay positive and great full I signed up as the advice is so helpful and greatly appreciated!!

 

[JudyN]

I think you're going to have to stop letting people come up and stroke them, even if it does stop them barking, because they are getting rewarded for barking. Maybe you could get some friends to appear, then turn and walk away when they bark. When you take them out, maybe teach them a 'watch' command - calm attention on you gets a treat. Once they can do this, practise it when you see someone in the distance - rope in your friend. The moment they spot her, ask for a watch, and reward if they do it. If they bark at the friend, the friend immediately turns away. Graually, decrease the distance between you and other people, but don't let people approach if they bark. Only calm behaviour (maybe a sit as a 'greeting' behaviour?) results in someone coming over to say hello.

Again, this is something probably better taught separately. And I wouldn't be in too much of a rush to try to do it when walking them together, because that might be just too much for them for a while, so maybe only walk them together in quieter places (and practise 'double watch mes' in the garden instead). The more they bark at people, the more the habit will become ingrained, so the aim is always to train in a situation where they can 'get it right' and not fail.

 

[Tania Mattock]

Yes absolutely thankfully it was just tonight the stroking occurred the two other soles just walked on by.
Me and mum have been spending the evening putting some form of plan together to start enforcing new rules to help this sibling syndrome.
So last meal today one ate in the kitchen and the other in their crate. That went absolutely fine!
I went up for a shower with one whisky mum was downstairs with the other. Sadly this didn’t work as the one who has separation anxiety from me (who was with me) was barking whilst I was in the shower and the other pup who I think has the separation anxiety from his brother who was with me was barking and whining even though mum was trying to play a game with him.
Yes it’s going to be very hard work but we are planning on taking the pups out for walks individually for two days and on third take them out together.
When I was walking them on their own yesterday their “check ins” with me were loads (probably as I was treating them each time) but I know this is important that they check in with owner. They were doing this today together but not as much

I have already messaged my trainer to advise possible syndrome and in next visit we can discuss and she can see and hopefully give me more tools in addition to all your good advice.

oh and also started the calm settle thank you for that! One seemed far more relaxed this evening!! Not reacting at every sound they heard and in the neighbourhood I live in sounds are constant!!

 

[JudyN]

I went up for a shower with one whisky mum was downstairs with the other.

I thought you were resorting to drink then and was going to say that that's often a good strategy when the pups are driving you round the bend It does sound as if you're seeing some glimmers of progress, so keep on at it - and don't hesitate if you have any other specific questions or just need moral support

 

[Tania Mattock]

Ha sorry didn’t read for errors before I posted! I didn’t resort to drink… not just yet.

However I am taking the mini wins today
Keeping my cool
Split room dinners are going well still
I’ve been rewarding the calm settle
Been on top of the back off with the fighting
A much more settled pair today there have been some loud noises but some not even reacted too!

I am feeling much more positive thank you

 

[Hemlock]

Well done - we can help with advice but you are the one who has to actually implement it. So pat yourself on the back and give yourself a treat!

 

[Tania Mattock]

Update & a question
Ok measures put in place and today they seemed so much more calmer and barely fought! That was a godsend in itself the calm and settle is really helping yay!
However been taking them out on single walks past two days and just want some advice.
So Monday out together, was walking fine a few moments where Chester was leading but soon fell into step with Drogo. Went to meet Mum from work and soon as they saw her they went barking crazy and pulling until we got to her. Mum was the only person we encountered. (Thankfully for my sanity that day)
Tuesday (slight error in timings of mum leaving some time after me and ended up pup spotting pup- yes more barking pulling towards each other) both barking at anything that moved and ended up turning round back home and it really upset me.
Wednesday took Chester out first barked at everyone he saw. Drogo however cowered behind me and did not bark at anyone.
Today took Drogo out first and he barked at everyone he saw and didn’t see anyone when I took Chester out.
Tips on what I am doing wrong or what I am forgetting. I am standing In Front of them and saying “No” but that’s just not working (and trust me my voice is assertive lol.. not scary tho).
I’ve been waiting for my trainer to get back to me with next visit and not heard anything and I don’t want to end up with coppers at my door due to complaints and I don’t want to avoid taking them out as they will never learn the great outdoors.

It’s this that I am REALLY struggling with.

Other than this had two better days where they are actually responding to me and trying to train them sit & stay which I struggled with before as one would do it and the other one didn’t

 

[JudyN]

Rome wasn't built in a day - focus on all the improvements you are seeing, not on all the things that didn't work. Shorter walks might help, as towards the end of a walk they'll be more stimulated and more likely to react to anything.

I would forget the 'No's - as you've found, they don't work, and they can increase stress so make things worse. When my dog used to kick off - he was too big for me to drag off in a different direction - I would sometimes let him blow himself out. So if, say, he was throwing a tantrum because there was a cat nearby I would just stand still and ignore him, holding his lead and hoping he didn't knock me over. After a while, he'd get fed up with the pointless tantrumming and calm down for a moment - then I'd praise and treat him. With a small dog, though, it might be better simply to turn on your heel and walk the other way, then praising and treating when/if the dog calms down.

Keep trying to avoid anything they will react to, and keep rewarding when they see anything and don't react. And remember, they are still very young. They will drive you to distraction at times for a long time to come, but the important thing is to focus on any progress. And don't blame yourself!

 

[Tania Mattock]

Haha yes I do try the avoid tactic but although they are tiny they have some pull on them and even in a harness hard work, but noted I’ll stop with the “no” will try another approach tomorrow.
Unfortunately as soon as I leave our house there is always someone about so hard to avoid. So they get riled up from the outset.
Lucky today it was our other neighbours who also have a puppy (who is a gem when out and about! And he still wanted to get near my two when they were barking their heads off at him). Think he took pity on me and was like ..” I’ll go inside”.
I get what you mean concentrate on the other important parts and not just this one.
Thanks!!