Cryptorchids (talk-in)

[Joanna]

I’m sure some of you are waiting to hear about the contentious issue that was discussed at the WCRA Talk-In today.

The topic on the agenda was a discussion about the implementation of rules concerning monorchid/cryptorchid whippets within the WCRA.

Briefly, the chair began his speech by describing the breed standard for whippets, which include the requirement for two fully, descended testicles. He then went on to quote figures from past 6 years or so which showed that out of 294 registered and passported dogs, 50 were either monorchid or cryptorchid, out of these affected animals, only two had show-breeding backgrounds. The feeling was, the racing lines seemed to display a disproportionately high figure of affected dogs

The WCRA have had discussion with the kennel club and a strategy has been suggested which will enable the WCRA to use their powers to ban certain dogs from obtaining a passport with the introduction of a new rule (with an appeal facility). With the aim of introducing the rule in 2009, the progeny of cryptochid dogs will be unable to gain a passport under the rules, in order to remain fair, it has been suggested that that cryptorchid dog owners will be expected to either have their dog castrated, or file with the KC for the progeny of their cryptorchid whippet to be unable to become KC registered (this is a free facility). This will enable dogs to obtain passports through appeal, but help to reduce the breeding of the “fault” into further puppies.

In the meantime, it is hoped breeders will use their discretion when selecting whippets to breed from. The vote was carried amongst the representatives at the meeting and will be on the agenda for the Whippet Club AGM in March

This was my understanding of the discussion, please feel free to correct any errors I have made, we were at the back and it was quite hard to hear every-thing

 

[Trish]

about time too,the germans did this 20+ years ago with the German Sheperd. :thumbsup:

 

[Mark Roberts]

Hi Joanna,

I think your pretty accurate with your explanation but just to elaborate on a couple of points.

He then went on to quote figures from past 6 years or so which showed that out of 294 registered and passported dogs, 50 were either monorchid or cryptorchid, out of these affected animals, only two had show-breeding background

Now as ALL racing lines at some point go back to show lines and it was stated that the mono/crypto trait is highly hireditory doesnt that mean that all the dogs affected were from show breeding at some point? seems to me there was a little cover up going on in some quarters :- "

Then you've got to think OK only 2 show bred dogs were affected BUT out of how many show breds actualy registered for a passport?.

The racing breeding worked out at about 17% I think it was but if the 2 show breds were out of only 5 show breds that have got a passport then that would be 40% oh my oh my (shame I dint think about that at the meeting )

The feeling was, the racing lines seemed to display a disproportionately high figure of affected dogs

But the question was asked by someone "disproportionat to what?" they wernt actualy basing their figures against anything else (ie: show/working stock?) so realy they were only saying the cases in their oppinion were high.

the progeny of cryptochid dogs will be unable to gain a passport

Dogs bred from Mono's/cryptos/entire dogs who have 2 testicles will get a passport in the normal way and will be unafected.

Male Whippets regardless of whether they have been bred from mono/crypto or an entire dogs that show the mono/crypto trait will be subject to the new ruling.

I think the WCRA have taken the only option open to them by enforcing the breed standard, my understanding was that the whippewt club/kennel club felt this the only far way forward on the issue without being seen to be descriminating against racing lines.

 

[*Lesley*]

Hi Joanna,                I think your pretty accurate with your explanation but just to elaborate on a couple of points.

He then went on to quote figures from past 6 years or so which showed that out of 294 registered and passported dogs, 50 were either monorchid or cryptorchid, out of these affected animals, only two had show-breeding background

Now as ALL racing lines at some point go back to show lines and it was stated that the mono/crypto trait is highly hireditory doesnt that mean that all the dogs affected were from show breeding at some point? seems to me there was a little cover up going on in some quarters :- "

Then you've got to think OK only 2 show bred dogs were affected BUT out of how many show breds actualy registered for a passport?.

The racing breeding worked out at about 17% I think it was but if the 2 show breds were out of only 5 show breds that have got a passport then that would be 40% oh my oh my (shame I dint think about that at the meeting )

Thats the thing Mark how many show bred dogs race but don't have a pasport, I for one have two racing show breds who are not actually fast enough to compete in opens ect, but can hold there own at club racing, I bet if you counted up the amount of show dogs that race at club level there would be loads :thumbsup:

 

I think the only reason it is seen to be more prevelant in racing lines is because we know about it, it becomes common knowlegdge because of the passport if show bred dogs all had to apply for passports I'm sure the numbers would seem equivalent :unsure:

The feeling was, the racing lines seemed to display a disproportionately high figure of affected dogs

But the question was asked by someone "disproportionat to what?" they wernt actualy basing their figures against anything else (ie: show/working stock?) so realy they were only saying the cases in their oppinion were high.

the progeny of cryptochid dogs will be unable to gain a passport

Dogs bred from Mono's/cryptos/entire dogs who have 2 testicles will get a passport in the normal way and will be unafected.

Male Whippets regardless of whether they have been bred from mono/crypto or an entire dogs that show the mono/crypto trait will be subject to the new ruling.

I think the WCRA have taken the only option open to them by enforcing the breed standard, my understanding was that the whippewt club/kennel club felt this the only far way forward on the issue without being seen to be descriminating against racing lines.

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[Joanna]

Dogs bred from Mono's/cryptos/entire dogs who have 2 testicles will get a passport in the normal way and will be unafected.

In that case, I have entirely misunderstood

 

[Judy]

As a sort of summary to all that, from what I understood anyway, is that there is a proposal that a paragraph, taken from the breed standard, will be inserted into rule 3.1 regarding registration for a passport. It will say "Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles decended into the scrotum"

But there will be an automatic appeal for any cryptorchid dog applying for a passport if the dog is either castrated or has their K.C. papers endorsed "Progeny not for Registration"

The proposal for the new rule will be voted on at the Whippet Club AGM. I think the idea is that it will come into affect for dogs applying for a passport after the start of either 2008 or 2009 depending on the outcome of the Whippet Club AGM. The delay is so that there will be time for people to get to know about the new rule and so that it won't affect any puppies already born etc.

Here's a link to the Kennel Club page about endorsements

ENDORSEMENTS

Only thing is, it does say that the registered owner of the dog whilst it is in their physical possession can add and remove the endorsements so I'm not sure how that will work. Couldn't an owner get the endorsement put on and then removed after they've got the passport? We were told yesterday that the owner couldn't remove the endorsement though so maybe I'm missing something. Anybody know about this?

I can't find a form on the KC site for having an endorsement added to the dogs papers, except as part of the litter registration form. I suppose there must be one though.

 

[Judy]

about time too,the germans did this 20+ years ago with the German Sheperd. :thumbsup:

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Not quite the same Trish. That was to do with registering litters. This is to do with applying for a racing passport only.

 

[Joanna]

Thanks Judy(for clarifying) :thumbsup: , yes, it is confusing to get your head around, It is the time frame issue which had me slightly misunderstood :wacko: , and in effect, progeny of a newly passported cryptorchid (after introduction of the ruling 2009) will not be able to gain a passport as in effect, you will have to either castrate or have an endorsement on your KC reg form as a condition (meaning the KC will not asign a pedigree and thus, in effect, prevent the progeny from running).

 

[Judy]

Yes, that's what the rule is designed to achieve in the end.

 

[Mark Roberts]

A pup from a mono will get a passport if it has as stated in the KC standard "2 normal testicles"

the rule will only come in if the sire was granted a passport after 2009 in which case a pup from a mono/crypto wouldnt get a passport BUT if you used a dog who had a passport before the rule is brought in and was a mono a dog pup could still have a passport if it had 2 normal decended testicles.

all they are doing is enforcing the breed standard.

 

[Joanna]

A pup from a mono will get a passport if it has as stated in the KC standard "2 normal testicles"
the rule will only come in if the sire was granted a passport after 2009 in which case a pup from a mono/crypto wouldnt get a passport BUT if you used a dog who had a passport before the rule is brought in and was a mono a dog pup could still have a passport if it had 2 normal decended testicles.

all they are doing is enforcing the breed standard.

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Yes. I agree totally with your interpretation there Mark :thumbsup:

I would like to know more about the endorsement aspect of the ruling though. If the breeder

can lift it, how can that ruling be enforced or monitored?

 

[Mark Roberts]

A pup from a mono will get a passport if it has as stated in the KC standard "2 normal testicles"
the rule will only come in if the sire was granted a passport after 2009 in which case a pup from a mono/crypto wouldnt get a passport BUT if you used a dog who had a passport before the rule is brought in and was a mono a dog pup could still have a passport if it had 2 normal decended testicles.

all they are doing is enforcing the breed standard.

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Yes. I agree totally with your interpretation there Mark :thumbsup:

I would like to know more about the endorsement aspect of the ruling though. If the breeder

can lift it, how can that ruling be enforced or monitored?

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In theory a breeder can lift an endorsment at anytime by a writen letter to the KC,

I can see after the rule change people putting the endorsment on then once theyve got their passport having it removed? it realy will need constant monitoring.

 

[Joanna]

A pup from a mono will get a passport if it has as stated in the KC standard "2 normal testicles"
the rule will only come in if the sire was granted a passport after 2009 in which case a pup from a mono/crypto wouldnt get a passport BUT if you used a dog who had a passport before the rule is brought in and was a mono a dog pup could still have a passport if it had 2 normal decended testicles.

all they are doing is enforcing the breed standard.

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Yes. I agree totally with your interpretation there Mark :thumbsup:

I would like to know more about the endorsement aspect of the ruling though. If the breeder

can lift it, how can that ruling be enforced or monitored?

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In theory a breeder can lift an endorsment at anytime by a writen letter to the KC,

I can see after the rule change people putting the endorsment on then once theyve got their passport having it removed? it realy will need constant monitoring.

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More than that..................It needs to be addressed and thought through before the ruling is implemented...................Loopholes are unacceptable, you either do it 100% or don't bother

 

[sue greenwood]

Surely when they get their passport there will be an entry added on to it to recognise the endorsment so that even if they do have it lifted by the KC it will be on their passport forever.

 

[Joanna]

Surely when they get their passport there will be an entry added on to it to recognise the endorsment so that even if they do have it lifted by the KC it will be on their passport forever.

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Good point, and a possible solution as long as it is trackable :thumbsup:

 

[June Jonigk]

I can't see why the WCRA had a problem getting the rule for not allowing puppies from cryptorchid sires to get a passport, passed by the Kennel Club. That was what they originally wanted, and would have been a perfect solution to stopping people using cryptorchid dogs - which is what needs to be achieved.

The story goes that the kennel club would not allow it - strange, since they allow the WCRA to prevent dogs over 21", or over 32lbs getting a passport!!!! (w00t) I can't quite see the difference myself.

I wonder if they are just going by what some bigwig in the Whippet Club says, rather than approach the Kennel Club themselves? Surely the Kennel Club is there to maintain the purity and health of the breed - not to allow it to be destructed by indescriminate breeding. Before long cryptorchidism is going to be listed as an inherited problem in whippets.

Thanks for keeping us informed by the way Joanna :thumbsup:

 

[Judy]

Surely when they get their passport there will be an entry added on to it to recognise the endorsment so that even if they do have it lifted by the KC it will be on their passport forever.

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Good point but I don't think it will work as the proposed rule stands because it only applies to cryptorchid dogs and doesn't mention their sires. Apparently the Kennel Club won't allow a rules that says the puppies of cryptorchid sires can't get a passport so the endorsement was to stop the puppies from getting KC registration and therefore not be eligible for a passport because of that.

If someone gets a passport for a cryptorchid dog by getting the endorsement put on and then gets it removed, it's puppies will get KC registration. The way the proposed rule is written at the moment, only the cryptorchid puppies would be affected and they could just get the endorsement put on and then lifted just like the sire did. In effect, nothing would change.

BUT, we were told at the talk-in that the owner wouldn't be able to remove the endorsement and I think the whole idea relied on that.

On the other hand, reading the page on the Kennel Club site about endorsements, it quite clearly says that if they are the same person that had the endorsement put on in the first place, then they can remove it too. If the breeder put it on, then the owner wouldn't be able to remove it but most breeders would want to wait to be sure that the testicles don't come down before they put any endorsement on, by which time they won't be the registered owner so they wouldn't be able to anyway.

I presume the Whippet Club must have looked into it though and thought of a way round it.

Here's a link to a another Kennel Club page on endorsements

Endorsements

 

[sue greenwood]

The answer would be that when a dog recieves its yearly sticker for it's passport they would have to prove that the dogs papers are still endorsed and if they can not or refuse to prove this then it would be right to refuse them a sticker for the year and the WCRA notified of this problem. All clubs would be notified so they can't go elsewhere in the same way we are notified about disqualifications. The endorsement is to get a passport. We breed our dogs mainly based on the best racing dog if this is from a good line but can't get a passport no one will want it to breed from anyway. we need our passports to carry on.

 

[Judy]

The sticker thing could fix the problem short term. Presumbly the club secretary would be responsible for checking the endorsement was still on the papers before selling the owner the sticker.

That would stop the owner from racing the dog but still wouldn't stop them removing the endorsement and using the dog at stud after the dog had finished racing due to age or injury. Or even part way through the year and then having it put back on again after the puppies were registered with the Kennel Club.

I can't help thinking that this must have been thought of by the Whippet Club/WCRA already. Maybe they have an idea to plug the loophole that they didn't mention at the talk-in.

 

[Mark Roberts]

IMO the only way is for the KC to bring it in that once an endorsment is placed on a dog it's their for good. (prog not for reg/ not to be exported ect)

BUT I doubt they would bring that rule in as it would then effect the show world as well?.